Timing chain for Laverda 500

I am not in need of any, but this sounds promising. But expensive if I understand correctly, 48 pitches for 160EUR - you would need three to make one 112 or 114 pitch chain for a 500/668/750, and have three joining links which is perhaps not ideal and certainly confusing when doing the shims! :D But better than nothing.
It would make the Laverda world a bit more dull not to have all the 500/668/750 owners wringing their hands about the lack of available replacement chains though...
 
breganzane said:
I am not in need of any, but this sounds promising. But expensive if I understand correctly, 48 pitches for 160EUR - you would need three to make one 112 or 114 pitch chain for a 500/668/750, and have three joining links which is perhaps not ideal and certainly confusing when doing the shims! :D But better than nothing.
It would make the Laverda world a bit more dull not to have all the 500/668/750 owners wringing their hands about the lack of available replacement chains though...
Click to expand...
Not to worry Steve. Now it's timing chains, soon it will be pistons and conrods, for the Zane models at least.
All those not acknowleging the urgency of the crank issues will sooner or later also be faced with at least one ruined rod and piston, mostly the cylinder liner as well. Single inner webs have been in short supply for quite some time. Luckily there's still a good stock of derelict bikes in the backs of many sheds. ;)

Yes, 48 links for €160 is sort of crazy... €480 outlay for a single chain? Then there's the issue of connecting links, the Guzzi chain is endless, no connecting links available there, so these would also need to be made. Last I heard the OE Guzzi chain retailed at around €80, already rather expensive when compared to the then Laverda price of ca. €120.

piet
 
But, when some factory build the right chain, they can build the right number off links, I would think.
Even for Guzzi.
Can someone find the specs of this chain to compare to the original? Maybe someone in Italy can talk to Cator?
When the specs looks good I am willing to try one.
 
The specs are 5/16 x 7/32 if I understand an old post of Piet right. And if I understand Steve in this thread right, we would need a chain of 112 or 114 Links? Can anyone reconfirm?

Oh - and what is the recommended change intervall? That could make people consider buying 2 or 3 when they are available in the right specs for future fun...

Wonder why Stein-Dinse hasn't tried to find a source or reproduction. If they are the same as on smaller guzzis f.e. (old V35 and V50), there should be high demand. But on Stein-Dinse's web page they are also listed as unoptainable.

I have done some pre-work on parts that haven't been available for some time. Not sure I can convince Regina to reproduce them, but if 3CMoto, Stein-Dinse and some other dealers get a decent information about how many would be needed, considering the fact that they are also not available for Guzzi's anymore - that could build up a significant amount of kilometers of chains needed worldwide that would make them potentially consider another batch. Typically, this is just a question of setup- and production-cost devided by numbers of chains sold.

F.e.: when the neutral switch for Breganze Laverdas were not available anymore, I found the original manufacturer and asked them if they could produce them. They were open to do so, but wanted a minimum Quantity of 15.000 in the first offer. I asked them what the minimum quantity were and they detaild the setup-costs and production costs separately and the final number was 3.500 units - but for a price of around 3,50 € each. Not bad if you could sell each of them, as a dealer in UK was selling them for roughly 30€.

Considering the demand of maybe 500 - 600 that you could sell to dealers worldwide, the 3.500 Units times 3,50€ = 12.250€ / 500 Units = 24,50€ though... and 3.000 Units for the bin. Not worth it I decidet and bought 2 from a local dealer.

In this case though, it seems no-one has yet convinced any manufacturer to reproduce them. If that is the case, a big dealer like 3CMoto or even Stein-Dinse could do that. They mostly do not consider though to test the water with the dealers worldwide. Pretty sure, OCT alone would buy 100 or more right away.

With 114 Links of 7/32 roller distance, the chain measures 63,34 cm. If they say they need a minimum of 1.000 Meters f.e. that would make roughly 1.578 chains. How many Zanes, 500 and Guzzi's are still alive and would need a chain within the next 3 years? Is it 500/year worldwide? (I understand the Guzzis need shorter chains, so would need factor 2,3 the number of chains compared to Laverda).
 
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Laverdalothar said:
The specs are 5/16 x 7/32 if I understand an old post of Piet right. And if I understand Steve in this thread right, we would need a chain of 112 or 114 Links? Can anyone reconfirm?

Oh - and what is the recommended change intervall? That could make people consider buying 2 or 3 when they are available in the right specs for future fun...

Wonder why Stein-Dinse hasn't tried to find a source or reproduction. If they are the same as on smaller guzzis f.e. (old V35 and V50), there should be high demand. But on Stein-Dinse's web page they are also listed as unoptainable.

I have done some pre-work on parts that haven't been available for some time. Not sure I can convince Regina to reproduce them, but if 3CMoto, Stein-Dinse and some other dealers get a decent information about how many would be needed, considering the fact that they are also not available for Guzzi's anymore - that could build up a significant amount of kilometers of chains needed worldwide that would make them potentially consider another batch. Typically, this is just a question of setup- and production-cost devided by numbers of chains sold.

F.e.: when the neutral switch for Breganze Laverdas were not available anymore, I found the original manufacturer and asked them if they could produce them. They were open to do so, but wanted a minimum Quantity of 15.000 in the first offer. I asked them what the minimum quantity were and they detaild the setup-costs and production costs separately and the final number was 3.500 units - but for a price of around 3,50 € each. Not bad if you could sell each of them, as a dealer in UK was selling them for roughly 30€.

Considering the demand of maybe 500 - 600 that you could sell to dealers worldwide, the 3.500 Units times 3,50€ = 12.250€ / 500 Units = 24,50€ though... and 3.000 Units for the bin. Not worth it I decidet and bought 2 from a local dealer.

In this case though, it seems no-one has yet convinced any manufacturer to reproduce them. If that is the case, a big dealer like 3CMoto or even Stein-Dinse could do that. They mostly do not consider though to test the water with the dealers worldwide. Pretty sure, OCT alone would buy 100 or more right away.

With 114 Links of 7/32 roller distance, the chain measures 63,34 cm. If they say they need a minimum of 1.000 Meters f.e. that would make roughly 1.578 chains. How many Zanes, 500 and Guzzi's are still alive and would need a chain within the next 3 years? Is it 500/year worldwide? (I understand the Guzzis need shorter chains, so would need factor 2,3 the number of chains compared to Laverda).
Click to expand...

If people rode the bikes, the chains would need changing.
No ride, no dealers, no parts.
Paul
 
112 links for 500 and 668
114 links for the 750.

Like Paul says, not much km with the bike anymore.
OCT wants 100 when they can sell worldwide. When all dealers has some, they only want 25 max, I think.

I realy hope you can make the difference.
If needed I will try a preproduction.🫡
 
As this discussion comes up again and again, there is obviously a demand... And some ride them really. Pilot f.e. has done over 100.000km on one of his 668. Not sure many can say that for the Breganze Laverdas... (I know some can, but not many...). Official change-plan for the cam chain is I think 20.000km. Many have reached that millage at least. Not sure every owner does care about it though...
 
Otto said:
112 links for 500 and 668
114 links for the 750.

Like Paul says, not much km with the bike anymore.
OCT wants 100 when they can sell worldwide. When all dealers has some, they only want 25 max, I think.

I realy hope you can make the difference.
If needed I will try a preproduction.🫡
Click to expand...
Me, too, Otto, believe me. I have contacted also some german sources that produce special chains and have departments for special orders. Will also continue tomorrow. Where is a will there is a way... Might be though, the chains get very expensive if done on request. We'll see... Interestingly, many of them have a 8mm roller distance, but not 5/16 which equals to 7,93mm... and those are just 3mm wide (inner widths), not 5,55 as needed with the 7/32 measurement. My thinking though is that if they produce links with 8mm roller distance, a slight adjustment could pinch the holes to 7,93 and we are half way there. Width then could be adjusted by longer pins and wider rollers, which they also have... Anyone has a pic of an original chain and/or box with other information? the DIN used for the links would be interesting as that defines the force also possible to be taken by the chain...

Does anyone know the roller diameter? Will be a point of checking with them... thanks for clarifying on the 112/114 Link information. I think if we can add Stein-Dinse to the list of dealers for Guzzis with 48 Links, that would make a way in the right direction...

All depends on finding a company that is a) willing and capabel of doing it and b) provides a price where it makes sense. And the chain locks need also be produced...
 
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Here you go Lothar, brand new Regina cam chain, 114 links
 

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motoddrob said:
Seems strange to me why Laverda decided to use an imperial size chain. Why not use the same pitch as used on the triples and 750s.
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Chains are tradionally manufactured in imperial sizes, possibly because these standards were laid down before the metric system and its standards gained momentum. Same applies largely to tyre/wheel sizes and bearing balls (with exceptions).

630, 520 or 530 may appear metric based, but the digits only state pitch and width in 1/8" increments, ie, "630" is 6/8" x 3/8" which narrows down to 3/4" x 3/8". Simple, innit? The timing and primary chains used in the 750 and triples are designated as 06B1/2/3 but are also imperial. There are of course a few rare "metric" chains for various special applications, but these are irrelevant for us.

The "strange" 500/Zane chain was probably used because of size constrainments, something laid down at the very beginning of an engine design, like, "it has to fit into this frame..." While the tooth count of the 500 valve train (15-30) is the same as in the larger engines, the reduced chain pitch allows the cam chain wheels to be considerably smaller, therefore creating a more compact motor. The tooth count could be reduced to suit the larger pitch triple chains and accomodate the necessary smaller diameters, but 14-28 doesn't provide a hunting tooth (bad engineering practice) and 13-26 is possibly too small at the crank to offer long term reliability at the given speeds for the larger chain. My trials Honda has a 9T drive sprocket, it eats a quality #420 chain for breakfast, despite only needing to transmit 11hp!

I visited the Agostini Moto Guzzi emporium in Mandello del Lario a few years ago hoping they'd have a huge roll of C107HC in the back of the shop. Sadly, all I got was a shrug of shoulders and an explanation that the timing chains for the little Guzzis came from the factory around the corner already in their blister packaging, they were in short supply and that when they were gone, that would be it... Actually, it seems the strange size used to be quite popular, but with anything mechanical progressing, the size has by now simply fallen through the grid. Much the same as M7, M9 and M11 threads, quite common in the 1950's-60's, especially in regard to italian and german vehicles, pretty unfavourable now.

Setting up tooling for just a couple of yards of these chains to satisfy a handful of tragics world-wide is mind-boggling expensive. Only way I see it happening is if some rich Laverda-loving humanitarian nutcase with money to burn sets his/her mind to it. I actually know a couple, but they don't have THAT much cash to burn, this issue has already been extensively discussed. China may be an alternative if you're prepared to take 20000 metres.;)

piet
 
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Why have I seen a couple of posts saying Dam Laverda have 668 and 750 Zane Cam chains? That's a bit hard to believe. Red, you should contact one of the high-end Auction Houses; you might be able to finance your retirement with that chain. Yesterday I was looking at world record autined Art numbers. If you can get a couple of hundred million dollars US for an Andy Warhol, what's a Zane Cam Chain worth? BTW, I was once asked to hang an Original Campbell's Soup Warhol in a holiday house at Palm Beach. I had no idea what that was worth. These are mind-numbing numbers
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Vince said:
BTW, I was once asked to hang an Original Campbell's Soup Warhol in a holiday house at Palm Beach. I had no idea what that was worth. These are mind-numbing numbers
Click to expand...
Verified by Antiques Roadshow, Vince? :ROFLMAO: There could be quite a few of those Campbells soup pics doing the rounds!
 
Thanks Piet for the detailed explanation.
I was aware that chains are generally imperial so my inquirie was worded incorrectly. The design concept and sprocket sizes makes complete sense now that you have explained it.
Probably why I'm not a mechanical engineer.
 
He was the 112th richest bloke in Oz by the BRW rich list, just under a billion oz, and his wife was a Director of The Art Gallery of NSW. They owned a huge house in the Consular area of Woolahra and 2 houses next to each other on the ridge overlooking Palm Beach. It was a real Campbell's Soap pic. At that time, I thought it might be good business sense working for rich people, but the reason they are rich is that they don't actually like spending money. I didnt last long. I tried linking some art prices from Auctions, but it won't happen, Mega Mega bucks
Quote.
The sale price of an Andy Warhol Campbell's Soup painting varies depending on the specific artwork, but a notable example is a 1962 painting of Pepper Pot soup, which sold for $11.8 million in 2006. Another large, hand-painted Big Campbell's Soup Can with Can Opener (Vegetable) sold for over $23.8 million in 2010.

E
 
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Ok - have addressed this with roughly 10 companies in Germany that produce chains and will see what responses I get... I will also try the contact that I got from the Zane-list
 
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