Triple starter swap

[Paul Marx]

The Bosch starter on my 1974 3C would seem to be giving signs of being tired. Difficulty in turning the engine over, sometimes even seeming to block against compression. It can of course be reconditioned I imagine. I've already checked brushes and cleaned up the collector when rebuilding to bike.

So I bought a new starter, of the SJCE type along with the necessary type of gear. Cheaper than a professional rebuild of my original starter.
My question, for those used to the later type of starter, is do I just slip that gear on the motor shaft and mount the starter? Is there something to be wary of?

On the photo, old above, black, new shiny one below.

Thanks
Paul

 

[2622]

So come on give it up where did ya all buy that starter from then. Could be doing with a few newbie me self just quietly

Yep the gear bolts on as apposed to the gear on the Bosch so not sure what your actually question is as you have the gear also for the SJCE already so put the gear on then with a new gasket bolt the sucker on, charge up ya battery and hit that sucker button and bob’s your mothers brother you will be up up and away .. ( not just not with TAA I may add )

 

[Paul Marx]

So come on give it up where did ya all buy that starter from then. Could be doing with a few newbie me self just quietly

Yep the gear bolts on as apposed to the gear on the Bosch so not sure what your actually question is as you have the gear also for the SJCE already so put the gear on then with a new gasket bolt the sucker on, charge up ya battery and hit that sucker button and bob’s your mothers brother you will be up up and away .. ( not just not with TAA I may add )

Thanks for the answer. That was my question, not being acquainted with the SJCE starter.

I got it here, an address picked up on this forum and stored for later reference.

MO102LB

Laverda 350 500 750

newstore.bluetraction.eu

It took a couple of months to come through and isn't what's shown on their photo. It's better, mounting flange without the bolt heads and a hefty 600 Watts. Ready for exclusively electric propulsion.
I wonder if it wasn't built to order. It took a couple of months to be delivered, The Hague is 3 hours away, and they sent me a diagram with measurements asking if that was what I wanted.

Paul

 

[andre g]

152 € ? usually they cost more than twice of this.
As far as I know, the Bosch type has its sproket retracted and it goes out when the starter is activated. The new one is permanently in the gears of the starter freewheel, which may have an impact to the starter cluch- but so far with my one it does not.

 

[martymoose]

Maybe we could put a bulk order in Paul, I owe Redax one at the moment

 

[Paul Marx]

Nearly ready to mount the starter, I just need some advice. The gear will need some persuading to slip on. I would need to heat it up and then knock it on with a drift. Is that normal or should it slip on more easily?

The last starter in stock appears to have been purchased. There was only one left.

Paul

 

[sfcpiet]

The gear is normally a snug sliding fit. It it requires force to fit, it's in danger of splitting. Check the interferance before heating or similar.

piet

 

[Paul Marx]

The gear is normally a snug sliding fit. It it requires force to fit, it's in danger of splitting. Check the interferance before heating or similar.

piet

Thanks Piet. A bit of relieving of the alloy part on the end of the starter shaft is called for.
Paul

 

[Paul Marx]

Thanks again Piet, it's on. Two twists of 400 wet and dry were enough. A minor high spot no doubt.
The nut is secured with a drop of Loctite. The whole starter has been brought indoors for the Loctite to cure over night. It's - 2°C in the garage and it's early evening yet.
Paul

 

[sfcpiet]

Thanks Piet. A bit of relieving of the alloy part on the end of the starter shaft is called for.
Paul

?

 

[Paul Marx]

?

Tongue went too quick. It appears to be steel, not alloy.

 

[chrisk]

Tongue went too quick.

 

[Paul Marx]

All fitted with new starter and a new used freewheel kindly supplied me by Gerald. Timing checked very closely, it was 3° retarded. Wouldn't explain why my initial freewheel was very damaged but I did have some problems mounting the Ignitech pick up initially which might explain it, otherwise negligence on my part.

The bike started with a slight touch of the button. You can feel the 600 W of the new starter.
I had an old bike meeting this morning so took the 3C out, fired it up, moved out and the engine which was cold stalled whilst I closed the garden gate. A push on the button and it sprang into life and off I went for a pleasant half hour's ride. I didn't notice anything unusual.

Met up with friends, had a chat and a drink and then time to start off home. No start, a horrible noise which I identified with a gear that had shred it's teeth.

I hitched a lift home, came back with the car and trailer and put the bike away. I'll have a look in the coming days.
I tested for the first time my super trailer that lowers to the ground allowing a single person to load and unloas a big bike.



To resume. I changed the Bosch starter motor for a brand new SCJE type. As I'd been advised, I changed the starter gear itself for the small later type and all functioned well for 4 starts.

When I got home, I had a good look at the parts lists, from the 3C and from the RGS with later type starter. There are two references for the intermediate gears, the ones between the starter gear and the freewheel.
(41119) 059 for the Bosch starter
(41119) 189 for the later starter.

Can anyone, Red, Piet, shed some light on this issue before I take all that to bits again?

Paul

 

[Exmoor beast]

All fitted with new starter and a new used freewheel kindly supplied me by Gerald. Timing checked very closely, it was 3° retarded. Wouldn't explain why my initial freewheel was very damaged but I did have some problems mounting the Ignitech pick up initially which might explain it, otherwise negligence on my part.

The bike started with a slight touch of the button. You can feel the 600 W of the new starter.
I had an old bike meeting this morning so took the 3C out, fired it up, moved out and the engine which was cold stalled whilst I closed the garden gate. A push on the button and it sprang into life and off I went for a pleasant half hour's ride. I didn't notice anything unusual.

Met up with friends, had a chat and a drink and then time to start off home. No start, a horrible noise which I identified with a gear that had shred it's teeth.

I hitched a lift home, came back with the car and trailer and put the bike away. I'll have a look in the coming days.
I tested for the first time my super trailer that lowers to the ground allowing a single person to load and unloas a big bike.

View attachment 69086

To resume. I changed the Bosch starter motor for a brand new SCJE type. As I'd been advised, I changed the starter gear itself for the small later type and all functioned well for 4 starts.

When I got home, I had a good look at the parts lists, from the 3C and from the RGS with later type starter. There are two references for the intermediate gears, the ones between the starter gear and the freewheel.
(41119) 059 for the Bosch starter
(41119) 189 for the later starter.

Can anyone, Red, Piet, shed some light on this issue before I take all that to bits again?

Paul

Cool trailer- hope graunchy noise isn’t to bad.

 

[sfcpiet]

You need to differentiate between Mk I and Mk II/120° triples. Of course the intermediate gear is different, they act on totally different starter clutch gears. Bosch/Mk I; 41 211 059. ND/Mk II/120°; 41 211 189. Thing is, they both accept either starter, as long as the tooth count is correct on the starter... your starter gear should have the part# 41 211 087. Not entirely sure, but I'm suspecting you may have fitted the incorrect gear from the OR600/650/668. This slips straight on but differs in one tooth to the triple gear, pretty sure it has a tooth less. The teeth will engage, but probably only at their very tips. If it had a tooth too many, you wouldn't have been able to install it. If it has/had the correct number, you'll need to look elsewhere.

piet

 

[Paul Marx]

You need to differentiate between Mk I and Mk II/120° triples. Of course the intermediate gear is different, they act on totally different starter clutch gears. Bosch/Mk I; 41 211 059. ND/Mk II/120°; 41 211 189. Thing is, they both accept either starter, as long as the tooth count is correct on the starter... your starter gear should have the part# 41 211 087. Not entirely sure, but I'm suspecting you may have fitted the incorrect gear from the OR600/650/668. This slips straight on but differs in one tooth to the triple gear, pretty sure it has a tooth less. The teeth will engage, but probably only at their very tips. If it had a tooth too many, you wouldn't have been able to install it. If it has/had the correct number, you'll need to look elsewhere.

piet

Thanks Piet, will check.
I ordered the part from Thorne Engineering in the UK who bought at least part of Slaters stock. I used the parts number to order but will of course double, triple check.

Paul

 

[Paul Marx]

Cool trailer- hope graunchy noise isn’t to bad.

Trailer is brilliant. Perfect for the mature motorcyclist. Roll on, roll off all by yourself. Just like the ferry.

Heaving, occasionally, bikes over 230 kg on to a trailer was becoming a dangerous activity.
I'd been thinking about it for a while and finally bit the bullet after suffering a puncture at the back of the 3C this Autumn.

Paul

 

[Chappo]

trailer that lowers to the ground allowing a single person to load and unload a big bike.

Hello Paul, how do you raise and lower the trailer? I searched the web for "motorcycle trailer that lowers to the ground" but could not find one that looks like yours. What is the make?

Thanks, Darren.

 

[Paul Marx]

Hello Paul, how do you raise and lower the trailer? I searched the web for "motorcycle trailer that lowers to the ground" but could not find one that looks like yours. What is the make?

Thanks, Darren.

Raising is with a winch.
French made this one.

YO Remorques

www.yoremorques.fr

 

[Gerald]

What a bummer Paul! I had hoped the starter issue was resolved.
Fingers crossed you won't find any more damage.

Gerald