I thought that it was plain sailing as well. Third time I'll be going back in there.
Paul
Triple starter swap
- Thread starter Paul Marx
- Start date
Paul
Those of you on the ILOC forum will excuse the cut and paste:
Went into the garage after breakfast and had a late lunch. Not that it takes that long to dismantle, but I take things easy and am always doing several things at the same time.
I have a musical ear and it told me broken or badly meshing gears. My ear didn't let me down.
The starter gear was loose on it's shaft, its nut was unscrewed. Broken teeth on the idler gear and once I'd taken the starter out, on the starter gear as well.
My first reaction was to blame myself. "You forgot to tighten that nut" though I remember doing it up and with Loctite on the thread as well. I then thought that the nut was too narrow and that a wider one would have been better.
When I took the starter out, I found that the part that mounts the starter gear was mobile. It is mounted on a helicoidal gear. I didn't remember it like that but thought that maybe it was stiff and not fully home, explaining why the nut was insufficiently tightened. Then, looking at the photos, I remembered that the mounting piece was pinned on the shaft, so I went back to the garage. Sure enough, the pin is sheared, with a bit in the shaft and the other bit in the mounting piece.
There's of course some large bits of steel in the bottom of the casing. Those cannot find their way into the bearing or the main crankcase. No trace of fine swarf and the engine didn't run when the problem occurred. So, on rebuild, there'll be a precautionary oil drain and basta!
I had a look on the site advertising the starters, my model is no longer there but the model that Smiddy mounted has reappeared. Maybe after my posts, there's some demand.
I'm almost certain that these starter motors are assembled according to demand.
I shall be sending them a mail, because there's no way that small pin can block the mounting piece on an anticlockwise helicoidal thread which is going to push against and unscrew the lock nut.
Now what to do? I'm rather tempted to weld the mounting for the starter gear onto the shaft and use that starter. Other option of course is to go back to a Bosch starter. I've ordered a new set of idler gears and a starter gear from Andy Wagner before he goes off to the Canaries for 3 months. The parts will be in the post tomorrow.
What you see in the first photo is what I found when I removed the cover. The starter gear had moved out by maybe a full centimetre. I had checked meshing of gears on re-assembly. The idler gear sits in the middle of the starter gear.
Sheared pin is clearly visible in last two photos.
Paul
Went into the garage after breakfast and had a late lunch. Not that it takes that long to dismantle, but I take things easy and am always doing several things at the same time.
I have a musical ear and it told me broken or badly meshing gears. My ear didn't let me down.
The starter gear was loose on it's shaft, its nut was unscrewed. Broken teeth on the idler gear and once I'd taken the starter out, on the starter gear as well.
My first reaction was to blame myself. "You forgot to tighten that nut" though I remember doing it up and with Loctite on the thread as well. I then thought that the nut was too narrow and that a wider one would have been better.
When I took the starter out, I found that the part that mounts the starter gear was mobile. It is mounted on a helicoidal gear. I didn't remember it like that but thought that maybe it was stiff and not fully home, explaining why the nut was insufficiently tightened. Then, looking at the photos, I remembered that the mounting piece was pinned on the shaft, so I went back to the garage. Sure enough, the pin is sheared, with a bit in the shaft and the other bit in the mounting piece.
There's of course some large bits of steel in the bottom of the casing. Those cannot find their way into the bearing or the main crankcase. No trace of fine swarf and the engine didn't run when the problem occurred. So, on rebuild, there'll be a precautionary oil drain and basta!
I had a look on the site advertising the starters, my model is no longer there but the model that Smiddy mounted has reappeared. Maybe after my posts, there's some demand.
I'm almost certain that these starter motors are assembled according to demand.
I shall be sending them a mail, because there's no way that small pin can block the mounting piece on an anticlockwise helicoidal thread which is going to push against and unscrew the lock nut.
Now what to do? I'm rather tempted to weld the mounting for the starter gear onto the shaft and use that starter. Other option of course is to go back to a Bosch starter. I've ordered a new set of idler gears and a starter gear from Andy Wagner before he goes off to the Canaries for 3 months. The parts will be in the post tomorrow.
What you see in the first photo is what I found when I removed the cover. The starter gear had moved out by maybe a full centimetre. I had checked meshing of gears on re-assembly. The idler gear sits in the middle of the starter gear.
Sheared pin is clearly visible in last two photos.
Paul
Jo
Hero member
- Location
- Cologne, NRW Germany
Oh, that looks like something doesn't belong together. But I can't talk big and prefer to let the specialists do an assessment!
Last edited:
Andy
Hero member
- Location
- Auckland, roughly
Indeed. I wonder if the makers are trying to use the same components for too many products. That roll-pin is never enough to cope with the force produced by the helix, however a keyway might. Or perhaps welding?
In any case, I hope the makers can come up with a solution, then we may still have a supplier of starter motors!
It's a mash up of both Laverda starter variants.
I too do not see it working properly long-term, the pin is far too weak. Adding a stronger, larger diametre pin will excessively weaken the shaft. Welding up the helix will prevent future servicing of the starter, I don't see a key way working long-term either.
Nice try... but no cigar, sorry.
piet
I too do not see it working properly long-term, the pin is far too weak. Adding a stronger, larger diametre pin will excessively weaken the shaft. Welding up the helix will prevent future servicing of the starter, I don't see a key way working long-term either.
Nice try... but no cigar, sorry.
piet
Yes. Starter gear is normally mounted direct on the shaft.
Parts serving multiple applications.
If you look at the Blue Traction website, you'll see that the starters for Laverda triple have a boss machined on to the shaft for the gear. No issue at all like that.
My starter is obviously a one off. Plus the fact that it turns clockwise and good engineering would have a left hand thread on the nut, this one didn't. So you have a helicoidal gear on the shaft which in effect pushes the gear mounting against the nut, inducing it to unscrew and with only a small pin to hold it all together.
I sent the company a mail yesterday, we'll see. This is costing a lot.
Paul
Yep, see my answer to Marnix. I've written to the factory with the above photos. They'll have found my mail this morning. The photos on the Blue Traction web site show starters with the gear normally mounted on the shaft.
They've suddenly become available again. Maybe demand following my postings?
Paul
Stock SJCE starters have standard RH thread, no problems there at all, not even sans Loctite. A flanged nut is used, has a lot more friction surface to overcome before loosening.
Your/their problem is the unnecessary helix/insufficient pin.
piet
Yep, the problem is the helix but nothing would have moved with a lh thread.
Crap conception. The assembler/seller has notified reading my mail.
Paul
CLEMTOG
Hero member
As I said (sort of) on the ILOC forum, (and for Marnix) the early starter was Bosch, right through almost all of the 180's and had a bendix which worked and did no harm, there was also (on every single triple of any type) the starter sprag clutch, so two points of disengagement for a 180, when Moto Laverda started fitting the SJCE starter, the bendix was never there, it is not needed, so in the case of the blue motion, with it turning the same way as stock, the bendix should not have been disabled (IMHO)
CLEM
CLEM
Grazie
Whilst rummaging in the garage to try and dig out my Laverdino 2T from under a pile of cardboard boxes and a couple of frames, my eye was attracted by a gear in a box full of gear selection stuff.
I found this triple idler gear. I in theory only have 750 parts but when I bought a stock of 750 parts from a concern that closed, a few triple parts found their way in, obviously.
I'll now be able to fix my 3C. I have the part on order from Thorne in the UK but the UK has lost a cyber battle and the Royal Mail hasn't been posting abroad for over a month now.
Paul
I found this triple idler gear. I in theory only have 750 parts but when I bought a stock of 750 parts from a concern that closed, a few triple parts found their way in, obviously.
I'll now be able to fix my 3C. I have the part on order from Thorne in the UK but the UK has lost a cyber battle and the Royal Mail hasn't been posting abroad for over a month now.
Paul
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
It looks like it is ready for a bowl of molasses! I wonder though ....... will molasses damage the bushing?
Jim
Started putting it all back together, so starter motor, freewheel and idler gears back on.
Then time to put the cover on. I notice that the ball bearing in the cover was very stiff, as if it was tight in the cover. When persuaded to turn, it turns without any notchiness. It's a very loose fit on the crank end, to the point that I wonder if when the crank turns, the bearing turns. There's no undue signs of wear, either on the crank end or in the bearing inner race.
Should I worry and change the bearing or leave it be?
Paul
Then time to put the cover on. I notice that the ball bearing in the cover was very stiff, as if it was tight in the cover. When persuaded to turn, it turns without any notchiness. It's a very loose fit on the crank end, to the point that I wonder if when the crank turns, the bearing turns. There's no undue signs of wear, either on the crank end or in the bearing inner race.
Should I worry and change the bearing or leave it be?
Paul