triplex primaries

CLEMTOG

CLEMTOG

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what is this crap that we (as riders owners) are continually being fed that you cant buy triplex any more,
I have never used twin simplex or duplex (Merc cam chain type) in TOG (1200TS) I have been tempted by the duplex, but in recent times when stripping motors I have not found the need to change the chains after seriously high mileage, and at one time about five years ago did a clinical experiment with a new (straight out of a sealed box) triplex chain, with the identical makers chain but wearing more than 40,000 miles (64,000k) and saw that it was difficult to measure any deterioration at all. This has made me think that Regina gave Moto Laverda huge discounts to supply them, with a proviso (guessing now) that in the handbook and subsequent paperwork is a statement by the factory that the chains must be swapped for new at XYZ kilometres. (they have to sell spares after all to survive)

I am building an engine and don't have a new primary chain to fit to it, so I did some research, very little in fact.
triples and twins use the same chain, it is triplex and 76 links long.

If you want to buy a new triplex and that is your choice (well its mine anyway even if not yours) then just look on ebay for a Norton Commando or Triumph Trident chain, they are available in Regina or Renold at less than fifty quid, sometimes a lot less, the commando one is 92 links long, so buy one and shorten it, you will have several spare links for re-riveting if you cock up, a Trident one is a bit shorter, so not so much insurance, and hey (risky one this) you can even buy spring link connectors (if you dare) I believe that Vincent twins also use this chain as may well do the Comet, but haven't checked length etc.

so why the "not made/not available" any more bullshit?

or have I missed this and you guys out there knew it all along?

CLEM
 
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As in all walks and avenues in life Clem, yes, the key question 'why' do folk say what they say. We have to look for any self-interest that loads their answer. It answer can vary of course, maybe sometimes because that person does not stock it and wants to sell something else, or they heard a rumor, or they have technical experience guiding them. It can be anything I guess. These days, the youth seem to repeat onward any old crap as being gospel. The internet made it worse.

I haven't refreshed a triplex timing chain for a long time, so I haven't had much cause to think about the technicalities much recently.
 
Clem, I use triplex chains in all my engines except the RGS and the CND850 because they have modified sprockets for 2 x single row chains.
Regina’s reputation was harmed due to the bad quality chains that do have a tendency to break. These can be recognised by the big pins. If you have one of those it’s better to replace.

Marnix
 

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Important notice:
If you have used the two simplex setup,
don't ever change back to triplex.
The outer rows of teeth will have a little wear,
the middle row not.
So, with a triplex chain, all the stress will be on
the middle links.
Have seen some broken chains caused by this.
Accompanied by some collateral damage".

Ernesto
 
Ernesto said:
Important notice:
If you have used the two simplex setup,
don't ever change back to triplex.
The outer rows of teeth will have a little wear,
the middle row not.
So, with a triplex chain, all the stress will be on
the middle links.
Have seen some broken chains caused by this.
Accompanied by some collateral damage".

Ernesto
Click to expand...
I use Duplex on the two inner rows.

Paul
 
and I also said that I have only ever used triplex, and many thanks to Marnix and Jo, very useful information,but I still think that the information, especially from Andy F to be misleading, here is a picture of the Commando chain that I have bought, following the historical information that Marnix gave, I am starting to wish that I had bought Renold, I wonder if they are still made in Britain? I opted for the slightly more expensive chain because it was Italian and Regina (no 3X's on this one) the links are marked "Regina" but this is random, because only one side is marked and in manufacture they clearly didn't arrange them with logo's facing outward, the hardest thing is shortening them, but HEY! we did it all the time when we were kids, and later when I was spannering sidecar crews and even when I raced my Monty (OK its gear primary, but I am talking shit :mad:/ rear chains here) so why not now, and I have proper chain pin pushers. Andy F made no secret that he was shortening pre-cut lengths of chain and joining them for us for the Merc type duplex, 3 Lav chains from one Merc, he said it was cheaper to buy from Merc than Iwis and he was UK managing director for them in the past, it wont be easy but then life is in the same category most of the time.

The idea came to me when I was talking about my Rocket 3 (BSA A75) and its trip back to the factory (well the engine) for a new gearbox main shaft as the (triplex) chain was out of line, a factory recall, it was ground and munched away all right but it hadn't snapped, swarf everywhere, I know because I took a look and then hooked the motor out (which invalidated my warranty) but BSA did not fully strip and clean the motor, and hence with 12,000 miles on the clock it was toast, probably due to circulating grinding paste, at that point it was ten months old, had enjoyed three new rear chains, three rear tyres and two rear wheel re spokes, NOT IMPRESSED. But for all that shit in those first 3000 miles and subsequent +9000 miles the primary chain was good.

CLEM
 

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Clem,

If anybody had ever inquired, I could have told them that triplex chains in excellent quality are available. But everybody got hooked up on the duplex hype, so nobody asked, or would have listened. Sure, the duplex is a fine chain and offers several advantages such as light weight and quiet running.

OCT can supply DID chains in simplex for triple timing chains and the 2xsimplex primary set-up, duplex for twin timing chains and triplex for twin and triple primary applications. At the moment, stocks are low due to Covid, but will be replenished shortly.

Took you quite some time to work out that twins and triples share the same primary chain... ;)

BTW, the pins do not transmit the power, it is very misleading to think the thick pin Reginas were stronger than others. The side plate cross-section is where it all happens, the smaller the pin, the higher the tensile stength of the chain. If a chain lets go, it will be where the pin passes through the side plates, I have yet to find a sheared pin. Think about it.

But, thanks for the tip that NVT use the same pitch, always wondered but never got around to check. Do NOT re-use previously rivetted links, the side plates will never regain their previous press fit. ALWAYS use a new rivet connecting link. Reckon even a clipped connecting link would be a better proposition than re-using.

The notion of not going back to a triplex after using 2 x simplex is largely academic. In practice, nothing much will happen, as wear on both crank and clutch sprockets is quite negliable, even over very high mileages.

piet
 
Be very careful about new Renold chains! If the box says "Renold Chain Manchester", you are getting a crap chain most likely made in eastern Europe or China. Renold says they are now made in Germany (since about 1990) but I have been told not the motorcycles chains.

If it says "Made in England" you are getting a good chain. I talked to Andy Chain about this a couple years ago and he said he will not sell Renold as the quality went way down when they stopped making them in the UK. It is just a cheap industrial chain they are selling for morotcycle use. Andy said for a triplex, use Regnia.
 
Interesting thread. I also wondered about the presumed 'danger' in fitting a triplex after running a duplex. How many Laverda owners out there have had to replace the primary or clutch sprockets because they wore out??? And we're talking some owners whose bikes have covered many hundreds of thousands of km/miles (mine included).

If running a duplex for 30,000km wore the teeth enough to make a diff, then surely the sprockets would be smooth and round after 400,000!!!

I have heard of race bikes breaking triplex primary chains (Dennis Skinners Laverda road racing outfit being one), but maybe they would have broken duplex as well?? Or maybe they had OS pins? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has snapped one or knows of any that have snapped.
 
CLEMTOG said:
what is this crap that we (as riders owners) are continually being fed that you cant buy triplex any more,
I have never used twin simplex or duplex (Merc cam chain type) in TOG (1200TS) I have been tempted by the duplex, but in recent times when stripping motors I have not found the need to change the chains after seriously high mileage, and at one time about five years ago did a clinical experiment with a new (straight out of a sealed box) triplex chain, with the identical makers chain but wearing more than 40,000 miles (64,000k) and saw that it was difficult to measure any deterioration at all. This has made me think that Regina gave Moto Laverda huge discounts to supply them, with a proviso (guessing now) that in the handbook and subsequent paperwork is a statement by the factory that the chains must be swapped for new at XYZ kilometres. (they have to sell spares after all to survive)

I am building an engine and don't have a new primary chain to fit to it, so I did some research, very little in fact.
triples and twins use the same chain, it is triplex and 75 links long.

If you want to buy a new triplex and that is your choice (well its mine anyway even if not yours) then just look on ebay for a Norton Commando or Triumph Trident chain, they are available in Regina or Renold at less than fifty quid, sometimes a lot less, the commando one is 92 links long, so buy one and shorten it, you will have several spare links for re-riveting if you cock up, a Trident one is a bit shorter, so not so much insurance, and hey (risky one this) you can even buy spring link connectors (if you dare) I believe that Vincent twins also use this chain as may well do the Comet, but haven't checked length etc.

so why the "not made/not available" any more bullshit?

or have I missed this and you guys out there knew it all along?

CLEM
Click to expand...
Hey Clem be careful with the British equivalent!!!
I have a T140V Bonnie (shh dont tell anyone) anyway I have recently replaced the triplex primary chain, and the pitch on that chain is not metric and although similar to our Regina's is different maybe 3/8 pitch.
 
mauricejota7604 said:
Hey Clem be careful with the British equivalent!!!
I have a T140V Bonnie (shh dont tell anyone) anyway I have recently replaced the triplex primary chain, and the pitch on that chain is not metric and although similar to our Regina's is different maybe 3/8 pitch.
Click to expand...

Hey Mo, that's a bit confusing. Laverda primary chain isn't metric. According to all the specs I've read on line, Clem is 100% correct. The chains are the same.

Roller chains comply with one or more standards, such as DIN 8187 (British), or ANSI B29.1 (American). British standards also comply with the international standard, ISO 606, so they're pretty much equivalent. The American ANSI standard is slightly different. Their 3/8" pitch chain is not interchangeable with ISO or DIN chain.

Laverdas use DIN/ISO 06B-3 primary chain, which is 3/8" pitch triplex. Vincent, Triumph, BSA and Norton all have the same spec chain. So it's a bit of a mystery as to why your Triumph chain is different to your Laverdas. Different length, yes. But they should be the same pitch, roller diameter, roller width and spacing between rows.

Harleys and Indians also use 3/8" pitch primary chains, but to the American ANSI standard. Their triplex chain has smaller rollers and closer spacing between rows. Don't buy ANSI chain for a Laverda.
 
piranha-bro2 said:
Interesting thread. I also wondered about the presumed 'danger' in fitting a triplex after running a duplex. How many Laverda owners out there have had to replace the primary or clutch sprockets because they wore out??? And we're talking some owners whose bikes have covered many hundreds of thousands of km/miles (mine included).

If running a duplex for 30,000km wore the teeth enough to make a diff, then surely the sprockets would be smooth and round after 400,000!!!

I have heard of race bikes breaking triplex primary chains (Dennis Skinners Laverda road racing outfit being one), but maybe they would have broken duplex as well?? Or maybe they had OS pins? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has snapped one or knows of any that have snapped.
Click to expand...
Racing Sidecars rarely have any rear wheel Cush drive which beats the crap out of any transmission, they also overload the primary when engine braking- I have seen engines over-revved this way.
 
this one is getting long, I took a picture of the tech stuff on the Regina box, can anyone (Cam?) deduct anything useful from this, I have tried the new chain around an engine sprocket and a clutch drum, and it lays on very nicely, that is confirming what Cam states, surely? I take your point about reusing previously riveted pins Piet, and I would like to buy a few unused links, but I doubt that will happen, it needs to be remembered that there would be no hardening AFTER the chain is assembled (ie riveted) so if I can remove a link without distorting its (fixed) sideplate, refit it and re-rivet it, then that is likley to be what I will do, I am fairly sure that is what Andy F did anyway, i have memories of him shortening chains for customers aboard his mobile shop at bike shows, just one single clump with a heavy hammer and a shaped drift/punch and then offer the customer some tools and a vice and see if he can get it off again, quite impressive.but as you state (Piet) OCT have them available to the right length, Brexit has ruined much of this for me currently, previously the difference in cost would not be considered by me to be an issue. Motalia (Ralph Allen) is listing Laverda specific triplex chains on ebay (£133 plus delivery) and he may be doing tha same as me, who knows? but the picture that he shows, is not the chain he sells, I know because he told me this, and I didnt buy, my chain was les than £50 to my door, not that the price is an issue, what does OCT charge for a Triplex? the aggro is likley not worth the cost saving for me, but these things happen from time to time.

and Piet, just so you know, news that twins and triples use the same length😍 chain is not new to me, just saying

supply of Regina unused links anybody?
 

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successfully cut the Commando triplex chain, had practice at rejoining using the off cut, and then joined the main chain!
not difficult if the right tools are available, such as a chain breaker/riveting kit, some long pin punches,the chain breaker coped OK with the triplex, (width wise), but not enough "throw" to fully push the pin out)
picture coming
CLEM
 
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