Triplex v. simplex primary chain

  • Thread starter Thread starter lytedrive
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HI NICK i have used both triplex and 2x single raw chains and have always been happy with rhe results. however both systems do seem a little noisey. i have just bought a 3c difazio which has a belt drive of unkown origin. having never run a belt drive before i have decided to leave it on and try it hopefully it will be ok if not it will be back to a triplex.
 
<DIV>Can I add the story that Andy Wagner bought a belt drive kit,as a project for his business,and (as he does) was intent on proveing it before sale to the customers,it was installed in "shark",he took a spare belt with him and got only a few hundred kilometres,he was forced to fit the spare belt at the roadside and returned back to base (slowly) on stripping he found the second belt was deteriorating.End of story.</DIV> <DIV>CLEM</DIV>
 
<DIV>Hi Clem,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a bit of a correction may be allowed here...: this is the end of ANDY's Storry, but not the reason for the end of the drive-belt-story. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Andy mounted the belt-wheel(s) (do one call it also sprocket? I daubt... miss the right word... you know - the alloy things where the belt is running on) in wrong direction! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Michael Stoecker (the producer of the new kit) got the kit returned and the traces on the alloy parts were quiet obvious. Andy denied that he had mounted it the wrong way. The same kit was installed in several racers Michael and others were driving in classic races. surely not powerless bikes... They worked very well in that bikes!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately after the bad letter from Andy and all the conflicts between Andy and Michael about that, Michael decided to stop the project. Not because it was faulty, just because he was so pixxed about the reaction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THAT unfortunately is the end of the story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lothar </DIV>
 
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>might be on of my kits,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i have made a few for the twins as
well,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>js</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B>
<A target=_top title=holdenp4@hotmail.com href="mailto:holdenp4@hotmail.com">Jota273716</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A target=_top title=Laverda@groups.msn.com href="mailto:Laverda@groups.msn.com">Laverda</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:10
PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Triplex v. simplex primary
chain</DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV><BASEFONT face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><A target=_top href="http://groups.msn.com/Laverda/_notifications.msnw?type=msg&action=showdiscussion&parent=2&item=17002"><B><FONT class=ThmFgTitleLightBk face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>Triplex
v. simplex primary chain</FONT></B></A>


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Lothar, that's a very interesting new chapter in the primary belt drive story -- a chapter that illuminates the very different experiences Andy and Paul have had with these kits. If they are reliable on race bikes, and monster motors like Paul favors, surely they would stand up reliably to sport-touring.
One question though: how exactly did Andy install the drive sprockets (I believe that's the word) backward? Is the profile of the teeth not symetrical? I have a Lytedrive kit and they appear to be symetrical. Perhaps the sprockets were not in-line and the belt was subject to side forces for which it was not designed?
Since the maker of that kit contributes to this discussion, perhaps he could comment?
 
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not much to say ,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i have some new projects and want to win a race
with it,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>scored a 1,st ans 2,nd 2007 Phillip island classic
with 2  different Bikes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>lytedrive fitted to both bikes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>belts are getting stronger all the
time,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What is the maximum rows of chain on a
triple?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>js</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B>
<A target=_top title=lawrenceerkie@hotmail.com href="mailto:lawrenceerkie@hotmail.com">Lawrence3</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A target=_top title=Laverda@groups.msn.com href="mailto:Laverda@groups.msn.com">Laverda</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:17
AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Triplex v. simplex primary
chain</DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV><BASEFONT face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><A target=_top href="http://groups.msn.com/Laverda/_notifications.msnw?type=msg&action=showdiscussion&parent=2&item=17002"><B><FONT class=ThmFgTitleLightBk face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>Triplex
v. simplex primary chain</FONT></B></A>


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<div>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>Hi
Lawrence,</span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>I?m not sure
Michael is contributing here ? maybe I oversaw him?</span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>I was told that the drive-sprockets
(if that is the word?) are not symmetrical. It even needs quiet of a bit
of force to put them in 180? turned (outer side to be installed to inner side?).
I was told that the teeth are rounded on one side and sharp angled at the other
side. If you mount them wrong, the just cut away the teeth of the belt (what
happened to Andy?s set?). That is also why the second belt did not
last: Andy just mounted the second belt without fixing the problem ? as he
just was not aware of it!</span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>Who?s fault this is
? I can?t say? I must admit that I also asked Michael why he
did not mark the outer side with ?this side out? or so, and he told
me that he did not even think of anyone could mount it the wrong way.</span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>Bad luck, I must say?
I also must admit that I was really sceptical about the system, especially
after Andy?s letter. Knowing the background shows a different picture
though?</span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span>Laverda Greetings</span></font></p>

<p><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<p><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span> </span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span>Lothar</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>


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die bei mir bis jetzt 387 Spammails entfernt hat.
F?r private Anwender ist SPAMfighter v?llig kostenlos!
Jetzt gratis testen: <a target=_top href="http://www.spamfighter.com/lde">hier klicken</a>.
 
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>some engines make more power than
others,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a 45 MM Belt  would win a race if fitted
inside,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>js</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B>
<A target=_top title=lawrenceerkie@hotmail.com href="mailto:lawrenceerkie@hotmail.com">Lawrence3</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A target=_top title=Laverda@groups.msn.com href="mailto:Laverda@groups.msn.com">Laverda</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:17
AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Triplex v. simplex primary
chain</DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV><BASEFONT face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><A target=_top href="http://groups.msn.com/Laverda/_notifications.msnw?type=msg&action=showdiscussion&parent=2&item=17002"><B><FONT class=ThmFgTitleLightBk face="Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif" size=2>Triplex
v. simplex primary chain</FONT></B></A>


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<DIV>Hi Lothar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not aware of the German fellow, Michael, contributing here, and as you indicated, he has since stopped production of his primary belt drive conversion for Laverda's after Andy Wagner's negative feedback. I have never seen the German primary belt drive conversion, so don't know what its design features were.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other producer of Laverda belt primary drive conversions is LyteDrive. John Scerri is in Australia, I believe, and is contributing here in this thread as JS,  with an I.D. of  "lytedrive". He builds and sells Laverda belt primary drive conversions for both triples and twins. I have two kits from him, one on my 1200, and one on my RGS, both of which I have been running for a couple of years now and both of which I am quite happy with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any questions about design and reliability of Laverda primary belt drive conversions, ask the source, JS, directly, right here if you want to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paul LeClair</DIV>
 
<DIV>Hi Paul,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The advantage over Johns system was mainly that there was no need to grind the cover to make it fit. It was an easier installation FWIK, which does not mean Johns system is bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You still can find it on his web-page, allthough I think he has stoped producing them:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A target=_top href="http://www.sport-connection.de/laverda_zahnriemen.php">http://www.sport-connection.de/laverda_zahnriemen.php</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>best regards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lothar </DIV>
 
<DIV>Hi Piet,</DIV> <DIV>yes, please keep us updated!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@Lawrence: Isn't the clutch behind the cover and still in oil? Looks like...</DIV> <DIV>I guess the difference between dry and wet is only the friction plates - if any.</DIV> <DIV>Heiko</DIV>
 
<DIV> <DIV>G'day all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apologies for the length of this post. It's a bit of an engineering diatribe and will probably bore the bejesus out of most normal people!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been reading through this thread with interest, especially as I have the primary drive cover off my 1200 (waiting for new clutch rubbers and gasket to arrive in the post) and have been contemplating the age of my triplex primary chain. I have no idea how much work it's done, so was toying with the idea of getting a new one and keeping the old as a spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's heaps of triplex industrial chains available from various manufacturers. As a mechanical engineer, I like to look at the engineering specifications, and there's not much difference between Reynolds, Tsubaki, Regina, and a bunch of Chinese manufacturers (actually, some of the Chinese claim to be higher spec than chains made in USA - but I take that with a grain of MSG). Anyway, the specs don't tell us much on their own. What do they really mean?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we look at the static load, we find that the rated working load (not tensile strength) of a typical 3/8" BS triplex industrial chain (to fit a Laverda drive) is about 5000N. The tension imposed on the primary drive chain of a Laverda triple engine is around 2000N at peak torque, which is well within the working tension of the chain. So far-so good. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it's not just a matter of looking at the static tension in the chain and picking one that will take that load. A power transmission chain is a dynamic thing, you also have to look at sprocket size, chain speed (m/min) and power (kW) transmitted, then there's a whole bunch of design factors like fluctuating load factors, shock load factors, speed factors, acceleration factors, sprocket size (teeth factor), multiple strand factors, inertia ratios, environmental factors, etc...  so you can see that it gets rather complex. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cutting to the chase, when you go through all the design calulations, you find that the rating of a 3/8" triplex chain operating on a 25 tooth (=Laverda crank) sprocket that rotates up to around 7000rpm is about 3kW. This is bad news because unless your bike is very sick indeed, it should be making more power than that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So where did all the chain strength go? It got eaten up by the speed that the thing flies around at. The design charts give a maximum operating speed for 3/8" industrial chain of 120m/min. On a Laverda it's travelling at about 1,600m/min which is about 13 times its design speed! So it's way off the chart. The reason speed has such a huge effect is that the chain has to zip around that little crankshaft sprocket, and all the inertial forces related to the change of direction are added to the drive forces that it has to transmit to the gearbox. So speed really does kill - chains at least. The designers at Laverda were well aware of the chain's shortcomings, and even a higher spec chain (if that's what the OEM chain is) is still woefully inadequate. So that's why the Laverda manual recommends tossing them in the bin every 20,000km. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of this begs the question - why did they opt for a roller chain in the first place?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they couldn't fit a gear drive in, then Morse hy-vo chains are much better suited to this application. They're twice as strong in tension, have higher speed ratings, are less subject to sprocket (chording) stresses, are quieter, lighter, and more efficient at power transmission than roller chains. If you look inside the engine of a Japanese bike with chain primary drive, it'll be a morse chain and it will last as long as the other engine components (my 1985 Kawasaki 1300 has a Morse primary chain and has done over 100,000km - most of that towing a sidecar, and there's no slack or wear evident in the chain)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems there are several belt drive conversions around, but has anyone fitted a Morse chain primary drive to a Laverda?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Belt drives are about half as strong as roller chains in straight tension, but they're much lighter so the dynamic stresses are very much less. The cyclic bending and straightening of the polymer matrix and load-bearing fibres causes heat and fatigue, and it will eventually fail. So the belt needs to be replaced regularly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you consider that the primary drive is in an oil bath, a Morse chain is (in my opinion) by far the best engineering option. Dunno about the cost as an aftermarket modificaion though - maybe I'll look into it some time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers</DIV> <DIV>Cam</DIV></DIV>
 
<DIV>Hi Cam,</DIV> <DIV>Very nice technical analysis about the primary chains!</DIV> <DIV>I know that Franz Laimboeck, the designer, engineer and pilot of the Laverda-Sulzbacher 1200 "nonframe" (1976), which was probably the most powerful triple ever, used a Morse chain. He did that after having broken the classic primary chain during a race where he had good chances to be on the podium, first time for a pure speed race (and not only an endurance race). He said to me that he didn't have any problem anymore with the Morse chain, unfortunately soon after his sponsors stopped to pay his project and then he stopped the bike development.</DIV> <DIV>What is really impressive is to see how many races had been lost by Laverda due to broken primary chains, included the Avon Championship in UK!</DIV> <DIV>JLO</DIV>
 
Hey thanks for the last couple of threads with interesting info "Cam" "JLO" really excellent
Cheers Tetley
 
Yes, I second that. Very interesting. I'd not thought of a Morse chain option (which in the end is not presently an option). I've always thought the factory recommendation re changing the primary chain was overly cautious. After reading this thread, I'm not so sure. I've got 20k miles on my primary drive chain, and a LyteDrive kit in the shed. I think I'll try to install it at Nakusp this summer.
Or not....
 
<DIV><IMG height=19 src="/forum/msnemoticons/emthup.gif" width=19><IMG height=19 src="/forum/msnemoticons/emthup.gif" width=19>Dellortoman1</DIV>
 
<DIV>Hello JLO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just had another look at Franz Laimboeck's "Nonframe" bike o page 100 of your book. It's a very impressive piece of engineering. It says a lot for the strength of Laverda crankcases, if not their primary chains. I'd previously missed the bit about the Morse chain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I turned the page and saw something else I hadn't noticed before - half way down the page (p.102) there's a quote from my brother Tim. The rotten bugger didn't tell me he he was quoted in your book!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>Cam</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
 
<DIV>Hello Cam,</DIV> <DIV>In fact, the nonframe was built for only one championship, what caused problem was not the crankcases but the fixing points/studs onto the cylinder head. This is the reason why this bike (now at Cor Dees museum) got later a"sub frame" above the engine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't know that Tim is your brother!! He has a long story with Laverdamania! Not only he was quoted in the book but also he helped a lot to translate in english this text about the "real origin of the Laverda triple engine", he loved it very much: <A target=_top href="http://www.laverdamania.com/deliriumgb.htm">www.laverdamania.com/deliriumgb.htm</A></DIV> <DIV>On a less happy note, the author of this text, the french journalist Arnaud Brodequis, who was a real passionate of Laverda and Moto-Morini, had a severe crash which caused him to not be able to ride a motorcycle ever. He finally preferred to put an end to his life some months ago rather that not be able to ride his bikes again...</DIV> <DIV>The text he had done for my website is then a homage to him.</DIV> <DIV>JLO</DIV>
 
<DIV> <DIV>Good discussion this one. Well done Cam for a nice analysis of primary chains. When i broke the (triplex) chain on my SFC racebike (jamming the clutch drum, breaking the crankcase/sidecover and nearly pitching me off in the process) I briefly looked into the other options. </DIV> <DIV>A gear drive looked interesting, but of course requires an idler unless you want the same transmission as an Italian tank (all reverse gears:-). It remains a nice option if someone cares to do all the work and testing to make something reliable. There are a lot of forces working on the idler, so I imagine it would require a boss on the crankcase and also something in a newly made cover to support the idler shaft.</DIV> <DIV>A morse chain looks like the best solution, requiring only to make the custom sprockets. Seems to be the best solution mechainically/practically. When I heard about Laiembock's conversion to this I was interested. Conflicting reports though, somebody told me he still had problems with the Morse chain? Maybe from Gert? But now JLo says it was fine. Who knows. </DIV> <DIV>When Chris Cutler was competitively racing my SFC he tried the belt drive but had problems with tensioning/heat and set it aside. The kit was still amongst the spares so I decided to go down that path, making a rotating spring loaded tensioner which basically just takes the whip out of the slack side of the belt, and also adding an oil cooler.  The other advantage of the belt in my opinion was that even if it fails, it won't bust my crankcase and try to throw me off like the chain did. But running in the oil is not a nice solution, I imagine all that belt dust ending up in the big end slingers and clogging them eventually.</DIV> <DIV>A dry clutch arrangement as per what Piet showed is what I had in mind, that's a lovely piece of work Piet! It's a little more difficult with the 750 though, as the oil pump drive is outboard of the primary, and the pump generally gets in the way a lot more on the 750. I imagined removing it altogther (machining the kilo of aluminium away from that part of the crankcase too!) and running something seperately driven elsewhere.  Lots and lots of options.... and work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, my mind can come up with projects much faster than i am able to get through them, so it all sits as some kind of future catalog of work if and when I get around to it.  :-)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers</DIV> <DIV>Steve</DIV></DIV>
 
<DIV>Hi Steve,</DIV> <DIV>Personnaly, I'm in confidence with these belts. I can imagine all the advantages of the lightweight but, as you said, if/when the belt breaks, all the dust comes everywhere in the engine. This occured to a friend of mine (picture in this thread), there was rubber and also other bits everywhere (in the big ends also as well) and he had to rebuilt (and flush) the engine entirely. The very small parts even came through the "filter"!</DIV> <DIV>F. Laimboeck said to me that he had no problem since the Morse chain was fitted, only a small one with one of the new sprocket during one of the following races after Zeltweg, which means naturally that the "Morse" sprockets have to be machined very accuratly.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway, seeing the Morse chain capabilities (Available in 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1", 1 1/2 and 2" pitches, designed with a pin and rocker joint to reduce friction and provide pitch elongation for smooth sprocjet engagement, ideal for applications where heavy loads (up to 6000 HP) are transmitted at high speeds (up to 10000 ft/mn), and where compact design is important, provides smooth, quiet and cost-efficient operation), it seems that they are ideal. Have you an idea of the cost for 2 custom sprockets to fit these chains?</DIV> <DIV>JLO</DIV>
 
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