Future for Zane bikes?

[arancia]

A couple of questions to Piet and then my opinion.
You said you have about 40 Zane' bikes in destroyed condition. Sounds like a lot without context but 40 of the 5000+ built is less than 1%, not a huge proportion of bikes sold as sport toys.
Among those, can you guess what proportion were abandoned due to uneconomic to repair crash damage versus major engine failure?
Is any effort being made to harvest parts?

I feel that until the Zane bikes gain the appreciation that the older twins are now getting and with the Zane' bikes selling for relatively low prices, only a few people are taking the time to look after them. For a long time it seemed only the triples had that status and I recall one major supplier telling me the Breganze twins would never achieve the status of the triples, they would not stock or remake twin parts, and not to waste my time on them! What a difference a decade has made in what people are paying for the Breganze twins now. So I expect the situation with the Zane' bikes may change similarly in time, perhaps over the next five years as they reach the point where people who did have one or wanted but could not afford in the late 90s to early 2000s now have some spare cash as kids move out etc.
I acquired several Breganze twins projects and lots of parts at low cost in my early years of living in USA because they had been abandoned similar to the current Zane' bikes situation of broken toys cast aside, I'm glad I did as I expect to be able to keep my Breganze twins running.
When I first sat on the 650 prototype in the Breganze factory in 1991 my reaction was that those bikes were not for me and it was several years over test rides in UK till they became available in USA and I bought my first and only new Laverda in a red Ghost in 1998. All my Laverdas previous and since were acquired used. Since then I've been accumulating parts and project bikes among the Zane' models as I want to be able to keep those I enjoy running long term too and they have suffered lots of racing motor and crash damage that will require a supply of new and used parts to support so I am keen to do my part to try to keep a supply of those unique consumables like the cam chains available until a specialist industry develops that may make, for example, differently sized chains viable similar to the many specialists working on the Breganze bikes, the total production of Breganze twins and triples was not a great multiple of that 5000 reported total out of Zane'.
I can account for six 668 (three under or awaiting major repair), three 750 (one waiting major repair), and one 850 Zane' motors in my care and I know several others have multiple of these bikes so I'm fairly confident that we'll get to a point where the support network will grow and a few specialists will see the opportunity.
OK, getting down from my soap box now - all, your thoughts on where we go with the Zane' bikes invited.

 

[sfcpiet]

A couple of questions to Piet and then my opinion.
You said you have about 40 Zane' bikes in destroyed condition. Sounds like a lot without context but 40 of the 5000+ built is less than 1%, not a huge proportion of bikes sold as sport toys.
Among those, can you guess what proportion were abandoned due to uneconomic to repair crash damage versus major engine failure?
Is any effort being made to harvest parts?

Almost all were abandoned due to terminal engine issues, the repair costs far outweighed the market value of the bikes. Most owners were glad to get a few bob for them instead of having them clutter up their sheds. A few were crashed, even then, repair costs can end up astronomical. Yes, parts have been harvested, as was the initial intention when buying up all the wrecks, quite a few have been used up completely. Not much left apart from the bits that nobody needs, but, even these will someday find a new home. Quite a few parts have become very scarce, the end of the line is nigh! Anyway, that stash has kept a whole bunch of bikes rolling over the last few years, for whatever that's worth...

Very few owners opted for preventive maintenance/mods once the issues became known, most preferred to ride them into the ground. While the bikes were still in "good" nick, a thorough going through to alleviate prevailing issues was a lot cheaper than piecing them together after they went bang. For instance, we're currently working on a 750S with all of 4000km on the odo. Attending to the common crank issue and factory-bodged valve guides will keep this one running reliably (sort of, at least) for many years to come. Lots of storage-related problems yet to be taken care of, not going to be a small bill. At least the owner can then be quite confidant of returning home under his own steam, instead of in the bed of a pickup.

I don't think these things will ever achieve a status remotely close to, say, the Tamburini Ducatis, not to mention the bevel Ducati SS, MVs, SFCs or telaio rosso Guzzis. They will remain pretty much a novelty in the long line of italian bike wannabes and has-beens. Better bikes have been built before and after, I don't see much to appreciate in them. Just another shoe-string-funded vision that failed, dismally. At the very least, working on them helps to pay the bills.

piet

 

[Paul Marx]

A couple of questions to Piet and then my opinion.
You said you have about 40 Zane' bikes in destroyed condition. Sounds like a lot without context but 40 of the 5000+ built is less than 1%, not a huge proportion of bikes sold as sport toys.
Among those, can you guess what proportion were abandoned due to uneconomic to repair crash damage versus major engine failure?
Is any effort being made to harvest parts?

I feel that until the Zane bikes gain the appreciation that the older twins are now getting and with the Zane' bikes selling for relatively low prices, only a few people are taking the time to look after them. For a long time it seemed only the triples had that status and I recall one major supplier telling me the Breganze twins would never achieve the status of the triples, they would not stock or remake twin parts, and not to waste my time on them! What a difference a decade has made in what people are paying for the Breganze twins now. So I expect the situation with the Zane' bikes may change similarly in time, perhaps over the next five years as they reach the point where people who did have one or wanted but could not afford in the late 90s to early 2000s now have some spare cash as kids move out etc.
I acquired several Breganze twins projects and lots of parts at low cost in my early years of living in USA because they had been abandoned similar to the current Zane' bikes situation of broken toys cast aside, I'm glad I did as I expect to be able to keep my Breganze twins running.
When I first sat on the 650 prototype in the Breganze factory in 1991 my reaction was that those bikes were not for me and it was several years over test rides in UK till they became available in USA and I bought my first and only new Laverda in a red Ghost in 1998. All my Laverdas previous and since were acquired used. Since then I've been accumulating parts and project bikes among the Zane' models as I want to be able to keep those I enjoy running long term too and they have suffered lots of racing motor and crash damage that will require a supply of new and used parts to support so I am keen to do my part to try to keep a supply of those unique consumables like the cam chains available until a specialist industry develops that may make, for example, differently sized chains viable similar to the many specialists working on the Breganze bikes, the total production of Breganze twins and triples was not a great multiple of that 5000 reported total out of Zane'.
I can account for six 668 (three under or awaiting major repair), three 750 (one waiting major repair), and one 850 Zane' motors in my care and I know several others have multiple of these bikes so I'm fairly confident that we'll get to a point where the support network will grow and a few specialists will see the opportunity.
OK, getting down from my soap box now - all, your thoughts on where we go with the Zane' bikes invited.

Things look very different according to where you stand.
I regularly fall about laughing seeing people trying to sell Zane machines for more that they were selling here in France when new because the importer was unloading them dirt cheap, they just weren't selling. I think that the Belgian importer who had a more commercial attitude for the sale of the things bought the French stock.

As for the gain in appreciation for the big Breganze twins, those bikes were Laverda, the nail was in the coffin when the triples came out. It is only a just appreciation but doesn't have much to with the machines qualities, most of them are not ridden much and the price only reflects the interest in older things of a society that believe's that it's unable to create and is cashing in on nostalgia. It is also an interesting view of the psychology of the collector. Just look at the load of Japanese consumer crap fetching crazy prices because it reminds well off middle class old men of their youth that cannot be recaptured, even for a lot of money. Women are more sensible, they go to plastic surgeons.

As for the Zane machines, most of them blow up if they run long enough.

Paul

 

[Tippie]

Straying from the cam-chain discussion here. The triples were not the beginning of the end for Laverda by any means, they were head and shoulders above Kawa 9 as a riders bike and they stood tall among the other alternatives to the UJM (universal Japanese motorcycle) that dominated the market then, and a lot of people did not want a UJM. In Jota format they held their own against the opposition right up until GSXR came into the game. The SF has always been my choice but most people wanted more. These days all bikes from back then are irrelevant nostalgia items, and we are among the group for whom they still give us the return we want every time we ride (or race) them. The 500 Laverdas had their issues as well as anything but are also fantastic to ride, there has to be a solution to this cam chain problem. I tend to agree with Quentin that new crank centres (they will all have to come apart eventually) and sprockets is a realistic option.

 

[Beucars]

I'm fairly surprised that until today no one has converted a Zanè machine with important engine failure into an all electric version. These bikes have been built up with quality parts around a modern frame.

 

[Patrick]

Probably by the time you sort the chassis and suspension to handle the weight of the batteries and get it where it needs to be within the frame to stop it being a ditch seeking missile, it's going to be cheaper to start from scratch.

 

[Laverdalothar]

I'm fairly surprised that until today no one has converted a Zanè machine with important engine failure into an all electric version. These bikes have been built up with quality parts around a modern frame.

very true... and who ever learns to ride them properly enjoys the great handling. Most of them can drive circles around triples while riding... They feel light as a 250 but are (at least well made Formulas) quick as more modern 1000ccm bikes. They were equipped with all the fancy stuff the 90's could offer (upside down forks, monoshock rear suspension, deltabox alloy frame, brembo gold line calipers and pumps, fuel injection, ram air system etc. etc. etc.) - not much left on the whish list of an ideal sports bike. And now think back that they were developed in the 80's and only marginally changed in the 90's (ok - from air/oil cooling to water cooling is a significant step. But else?

Yes, they have their issues and quality wasn't the real focus of the Zané guys. And I am with Piet, many do hope they last, ignore all the warnings and moan around when finally the engine blows up.

But let's not forget that bikes do brake, no matter if they are built in Zané, in Breganze or somewhere else on the planet. Especially, if you do not treat them as they deserve it.

And for the market prices: well - I think there was a fair chance to build a market around them. It was destroyed though by people calling them "rolling hand grenades", people that focus on the issues of the bikes and air their dislikes of the bikes. A myth rarely has to do with issues, it focusses on the good side.

How many failures are known on Triple engines? And they are really not complex, right? Casting was sometimes crap, overheating issues of the center cylinder causing cracks in the skull, the cam chain tunnel and lots more. Wrong main bearings? I heard that from triples, too, right? Leaking engines - sounds familiar, too... Almost everyone exchanges the ignition against a DMC, Sachse, Ignitech or what ever. Almost 50% (if not more) of all Triples are modified in some regards. The side stand is crap on the 120°, the exhausts get exchanged against Jota pipes, Dell'ortos get replaced by Mikunis and so on and so on.

If you would spend what it takes to get a Triple Laverda half way decently running with equal power as a Zane and upgrade all necessary suspension parts to make it ride at least like a Honda VFR 750, you end up way beyond 12.000 €. If you spend similar money on Zane bikes, you have a bike that runs better, handles better and is even more rare. And a second one in the same reliable state aside of it.

If the same development work that Gijs, OCT, Red and many others have done for the twins and triples from Breganze would have gone into the Zané's - hell, that would make VERY nice bikes... But they are missing a lot of developments, one "simple" one would be an alternative to the crapy WM16 ECU, which causes more issues to the riding of the bike than any other component.

I feel they deserve their place in the Laverda-History, even though others see it differently. Each to their own, right, as who makes anyone on this planet able to judge for all of us? Me not, that's for sure.

 

[Sir Sidney Ruffdiamond]

It’s a great bike to ride - although I don’t think it can match the way you can flog a Fireblade or R1 for example - I bought mine in November 19 and excepted that it could be trouble but I did over a 1000 miles during 2020 - it sounds ok I am changing the oil at regular intervals - it’s a fantastic summer bike - uncomfortable in winter with all the stiff cold kit on - I wanted to ride it rather than strip it - has done 24k km - quite a few getting about - looking forward to next year - following all the discussions avidly

 

[sfcpiet]

Sorry Lothar,

You're comparing apples with pears...

The Breganze bikes are from a totally different era, when the japanese were just taking over from the brits. Italian bikes at the time were mostly small, commuter vehicles, with a very small amount of mid- to large-capacity exotica amoungst them. This changed dramatically in the 70's as motorcycles finally established themselves as a recreational toy. Very few manufacturers, apart from those heavily into the asian markets, offered true commuter machines, focussing basically on the biggest, fastest, best. Hi-tech, or what was deemed as such at the time, was slow to being introduced to a public used to fettle their machines by themselves, and there wasn't that much free-flowing cash around back then. In retrospect, the Laverda twins were just a little more sophisticated than many of their competitors, but the triples offered cutting-edge tech in many respects. Contact-less electronic ignition had only just established itself in other motorised fields, Dellorto PHBs had only just been introduced and DOHC was the stuff racer dreams were made of. The truely crazy and unique 180° triple engine topped it off and made it an instantly desirable machine, for some at least.

The Zane bikes had to compete against just-about-perfect-out-of-the-box japanese products, Ducati had got their shit together with the rubber band FI models, it was a tough, up-hill struggle from the word go. No amount of great brakes and knife-like handling will compensate for what is basically an under-developed, over-stressed engine with crappy road manners, especially considering the opposition. The general layout of the bikes is only what the public was expecting from a sports bike at the time, nothing really special and on par with most of their competitors, general build quality apart. Had they been introduced in the mid to late 80's, with alloy beam frame and fuel injection, they may well have cut a nice slice of the market for themselves (I glimpsed prototypes at Breganze during a visit shortly before the factory closed down), but it took another 5-6 years until they were finally shown to the public and even longer for them to hit the market, others had overtaken them by then. It took another couple of years for the liquid-cooled 750, the badly-needed replacement, to arrive.

Yes, the old Breganze beasts have their issues, but they have also survived 40-odd years of use and abuse. Many Zane bikes didn't last a week after rolling out the dealers' door. I have yet to come across a Zane engine with over 100000km that has never previously been opened. I think longevity is plainly on the side of the Breganze products, despite their cumulative failings.

Yes, I do warn people of the shortcomings, just as I do regarding Breganze products. I do not view any bike through rose-tinted specs, I got over that long ago. I see grown men drooling and wetting their pants at the sight of a polished orange turd, these machines consistantly turn up at the OCT workshop after selling for mega bucks and the new owners realising that they cannot ride for more than 10 minutes without having something major fail... again. If not before, the final bill usually brings them back down to earth. Despite that, most are truly delighted with the results, Breganze as well as Zane, usually surpassing all expectations.

Yes, the Breganze bikes are often modified beyond recognition, my own bike being a prime example (mostly, simply because I could, not much else to it). It was not to create a world-beater, which is completely futile these days and has been for quite some time, but to take up a challenge and make the best from it. I most probably would have done the same if my choice had fallen on any other bike at the time of purchase. I'm quite at ease with the fact that my 3C has cost me more than double of what a sooper-dooper 1198SP-whatever would have cost me a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't have it any other way, it's been a bag of fun and laughs most of the time and I've learnt a lot from doing it over the course of 40 years. Now, it's just a heavily-modded project bike, worth far less than a "nice" original example that does absolutely nothing even half as good as mine. I'm confident many others follow a similar mindset in regard to old(er) bikes. The first thing most new-Zane owners clamoured for is a set of Termignonis and a chip tune, because it basically had all it needed. There was not much else to do, except address the factory failings (which most ignored).

The Zane bikes were produced in an era where the buying public expected to recieve faultless vehicles capable of running at least 50000km before requiring major maintenance (remember Yamaha praising the 42000km valve check interval for the FZR?). In this respect, the Zane products were dinosaurs with no right to exist. Sure, many jap bikes blew up long before, but the vast majority did 50000 and more, easily, requiring not much more than a single oil change and normal consumables. Even todays Ducatis mange to achieve this! New tech is now readily, slavishly lapped up and rarely questioned. Sign o' the times...

My 2 3 cents.

piet

 

[Paul Marx]

To resume without going into long hard look at the evolution of our societies in the last half century...............
Zanes are just blown up 500s.

Paul

 

[piranha-bro2]

To resume without going into long hard look at the evolution of our societies in the last half century...............
Zanes are just blown up 500s.

Paul

Only their engines, Paul - the chassis and running gear of a Zane is exceptional compared with a 500 - NOTHING in common. I've ridden a 668 and seen a Formula disappearing up the road at very high speed on a very bumpy, irregular surface as my modified SF was on the limit (soon to be reborn in a far nicer handling package, hopefully). I've always wanted to get a Zane rolling chassis and dump a neat little modern twin motor into it - I think Clem is doing just that. brilliant idea.
Enjoyed your 'article' on the history of motorcycles from the 70s to the 00s, Piet!!

 

[rider668]

I'm fairly surprised that until today no one has converted a Zanè machine with important engine failure into an all electric version. These bikes have been built up with quality parts around a modern frame.

Please don‘t be suprised. An electric Laverda 650 Formula was on the podium in the first electric race at the Isle of Man, the TTXGP in 2009.

 

[arancia]

Please don‘t be suprised. An electric Laverda 650 Formula was on the podium in the first electric race at the Isle of Man, the TTXGP in 2009.

Can you provide any more information about that bike?

 

[Vince]

That was impressive, juggling speed to make the distance before depleting the battery. But it was only one lap.

 

[piranha-bro2]

That was impressive, juggling speed to make the distance before depleting the battery. But it was only one lap.

In 2009 that was pretty handy, Vince. Batteries have come along a lot since then. How far did a 2009 Tesla go on a charge?

 

[Dellortoman]

How far did a 2009 Tesla go on a charge?

I think it went into orbit.

 

[arancia]

Please don‘t be suprised. An electric Laverda 650 Formula was on the podium in the first electric race at the Isle of Man, the TTXGP in 2009.

I have to agree strongly.
I'd had Breganze 750s, SF2 and SFC from the late 70s, then US spec Jota, RGS and RGA in the 80's and 90's but after initially rejecting the Zane' bikes as not my thing and just a step up from the 500s which I'd tried and rejected as no great advantage over my well-used SF2, I bought and we raced 668 Ghost and Diamanté based bikes and then the factory 850 in 1998 and 1999, I was convinced; the handling was superb. I'd tried various "modern" bikes from Japan, Germany and Italy till then but the Zane' chassis was excellent, on a par with any of my friends' middleweight street bikes to that date.
I then bought a used 750 Strike and took it to the 2004 US Laverda gathering in California where we had a track day on the full circuit at Willow Springs. On my street 750 Strike on which I'd had to fit the wrong size rear tire after a big nail puncture on the group ride the day before, nobody passed me despite my not wanting to crash my street bike and having previously been shown the way around and lapped by serious racers in prior AHRMA events - I'm a casual track timer, caring for my vintage bikes rider, not a serious 100%+ racer. I did have some experience on 750SFC and the 668s on the track but little time at Willow Springs so was surprised that the Breganze 750s, 1000s and 1200s were not blowing past me on that circuit.
Appreciating that my aging body and self-preservation instincts were a limitation to going fast, I enrolled a much younger rider for the 668 race bike. He won the regional lightweight SuperSport class on the way to a regional overall #1 plate for the year in 1999 in the US CCS series. He showed great promise on the 850 factory bike and we planned to compete in the 2000 series LaverdaCup and AMA twins races till the factory's closure put an end to that scheme. He was a hard-core racer and it cost much bodywork, a chassis and several engines but beat the many highly prepared Suzuki 650 twins and similar overall in the year's series where air-cooled 668s competed against 650 water-cooled. He also raced a Suzuki 600-4 heavily bruised and scarred and ran the 668s just as hard with max revs downshifts - numerous balance shafts were sacrificed!
I think that despite the over-stressed and fragile engines if not cared for, the combination of power and handling of the Zane' bikes was tremendous at their price point. Clearly the limit of development of those engines was understood at Zane' for some time before their demise, the attempt to use Suzuki engines and to stay alive long enough to develop a new triple was under way for some time before the doors closed.
And yes, I do still love each of my Laverdas from 75 Sport through 750Strike, each has its role and fits it well, none of them are for sale! So perhaps that means I'm one of those that Paul M considers to be a male psychological throwback - indeed plastic surgery might be both less painful and less expensive!

 

[Paul Marx]

It's not the reasons we like are bikes, or for that matter what bikes they are that I was trying to highlight, just that in my opinion, one has to stop thinking about some machines, nearly all, with obsolete criteria such as value or technical particularities and stop calling upon the god market to be the judge. The market will do what the legislative context will allow it to do and that context is not favourable to old petrol vehicles, and that definitely. The because it's old, it's interesting times are over. Thank God.

Lastly, don't forget that underlying the whole Zane concern, and explaining it's brief life and the dubious quality of its products ,was its buyer and his financial world view.

Paul

 

[rider668]

I have to agree strongly.

Absolutely - your story is excellent and no surprise to me. This forum is fun but many people on it have little or no experience of owning or indeed racing the “modern” Laverdas (it’s now a mere 30 years since they were first created!). Comparing them to 500s misses their point entirely. The bikes are compact, well balanced, superb handling machines. Their weak point is the legacy, obsolete, engines - the only mechanical part which links them to the 500!

Over this side of the pond, the last notable successes for Laverdas were the 2009 TtXGP, following on from the 2008 successes we had at the British Motorcycle Racing Club. We ran a 750 S Formula to a televised double Thunderbike UK win (beating the newly crowned champion on his CBR600) and also used a 650 Formula to contribute to Russ Joyner’s third place in the 2008 Minitwins championship. This included a memorable second place finish beating 38 SV 650s! This on a bike designed in 1991 - a testament to the excellent design and superb chassis dynamics of the bike.

It is interesting to see innovative features from the bikes being copied by other manufacturers subsequently. I have a friend who had a Zane bike twenty years ago and liked it, so he recently bought a BMW. If only Laverda had been resourced to produce a brand new parallel twin motor 30 years ago... Parallel twins are right back in fashion now, validating the “rightness” of one of Laverdas design decisions.

The middleweight twins have earned a place in Laverda history, but for their handling, but not for their old tech engines.

 

[Beucars]

Anyone already tried to fit a Benelli 900 Tre engine into a Zanè chassis? Not that they are less troublesome compared to an original twin, but the fact that this unit was designed as the new Laverda triple maybe makes this an interesting exercise..