Future for Zane bikes?

Piet, I think we will never agree on the Zané's, as your point of view comes from the technical side (which is engine- and electrics-wise widely crap and needs serious attention, I agree), mine comes from the feeling of riding it.

I would have to say a lot to what you wrote but I deleted it, as I don't think we can change each others mind and I respect you to much to argue with you especially publicly.

Let's agree not to agree on this 😉
 
piranha-bro2 said:
Only their engines, Paul - the chassis and running gear of a Zane is exceptional compared with a 500 - NOTHING in common. I've ridden a 668 and seen a Formula disappearing up the road at very high speed on a very bumpy, irregular surface as my modified SF was on the limit (soon to be reborn in a far nicer handling package, hopefully). I've always wanted to get a Zane rolling chassis and dump a neat little modern twin motor into it - I think Clem is doing just that. brilliant idea.
Enjoyed your 'article' on the history of motorcycles from the 70s to the 00s, Piet!!
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Quentin,

The chassis is really only brilliant when compared to prior Laverda products. Compared to their contemporary competitors, it's only just slightly above average. If the factory had been able to throw them on the market 10 years earlier, it may well have been the benchmark for all others. Nico Bakker and WP were at the cutting edge of chassis tech at the time, but the prototypes were far too long in the making, the dire financial straits in Breganze certainly not helping either.

And before everybody cries out "top shelf components used", what makes them so special? Nothing special about the brakes, just mass-produced Brembo stuff, used by dozens of other manufacturers at the time. Maybe they were special because the front discs warped regularly... Perhaps the WP suspension components were a bit above other offerings, but why the hell did they opt for a 15(!)mm front axle and piss-weak fork yokes? EVERYBODY at the time had recognised the need for more front end rigidity, even jap front axles and yoke clamps were growing by the year. Anyway, WP was soon replaced by Paioli, probably to cut costs. Alloy beam frame, OK at first glance... the inserted tubes for the induction hoses seriously weaken the headstock area, a minor frontal shunt will bend the frame at these points like a liquorice bar, the bloody thing only LOOKS strong. Tomaselli clip-on handlebars... with their constantly breaking clamps. Marchesini wheels... their finish and corrosion protection couldn't hold a candle to decade-older 18" GSXR wheels, which were certainly made in far greater numbers to a far lower price. Not to mention the overall build quality, just sticking a bunch of expensive components together doesn't necessarily result in a good bike.

It all looks nice and tempting from the outside, better to come in for a closer look. ;)

piet
 
Tippie said:
Straying from the cam-chain discussion here. The triples were not the beginning of the end for Laverda by any means, they were head and shoulders above Kawa 9 as a riders bike and they stood tall among the other alternatives to the UJM (universal Japanese motorcycle) that dominated the market then, and a lot of people did not want a UJM. In Jota format they held their own against the opposition right up until GSXR came into the game. The SF has always been my choice but most people wanted more. These days all bikes from back then are irrelevant nostalgia items, and we are among the group for whom they still give us the return we want every time we ride (or race) them. The 500 Laverdas had their issues as well as anything but are also fantastic to ride, there has to be a solution to this cam chain problem. I tend to agree with Quentin that new crank centres (they will all have to come apart eventually) and sprockets is a realistic option.
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Hello!

my neigbour Domingo, has been my mechanical mentor, he is 77 and has a very wide knowledge, specially in more traditional methodes. When I get involved in some more actual projects, he likes them but he refuses to do it in his workshop saying “with 77 is not worth it anymore”, and sometimes I have to agree.

For me that is not an excuse, I am 35 and when I see the near future of Laverdas 500 (for example)
for just the cam chain issue, I can’t simply accept it, I feel a kind of responsability to find a solution. I understand that some of you, who could easily find a solution to that problem, have no time, no motivation or if you make it for living, is not worth it.

I don’t have many necessary things to succesfully achieve such a project, but for that reason we are a community!

What about opening a new threat or group (whatsapp?) to join knowledge, tools, spare parts, providers in order to achieve a new center crank sprocket and cams sprocket to fit an standard cam chain in the lav500??
Maybe I am talking senseless... What I’ve seen in this forum/comunity I haven’t seen anywhere else... so why not!

regards,
Miguel
 
to design and manufacture new crank center pins and cam sprockets to use a common cam timing chain is no big issue in itself, but when doing so to even get a slight price break to lower the cost per set the person that is paying for this upfront is going to have to order at least 10 sets and then have them sit on the shelf for probably years waiting on a return on their outlay

who in this small Laverda world is going to do that especially for the 500 and Zane bikes that I regard as a fragile and flawed design
and right now all the major Laverda spare parts dealers worldwide are looking at either reducing their workload or closing up all togethet
and yes, Maxene and I do own a 500 Monty so we do have some experience with them though not as much as Piet, thankfully
 
michipons said:
Hello!

my neigbour Domingo, has been my mechanical mentor, he is 77 and has a very wide knowledge, specially in more traditional methodes. When I get involved in some more actual projects, he likes them but he refuses to do it in his workshop saying “with 77 is not worth it anymore”, and sometimes I have to agree.

For me that is not an excuse, I am 35 and when I see the near future of Laverdas 500 (for example)
for just the cam chain issue, I can’t simply accept it, I feel a kind of responsability to find a solution. I understand that some of you, who could easily find a solution to that problem, have no time, no motivation or if you make it for living, is not worth it.

I don’t have many necessary things to succesfully achieve such a project, but for that reason we are a community!

What about opening a new threat or group (whatsapp?) to join knowledge, tools, spare parts, providers in order to achieve a new center crank sprocket and cams sprocket to fit an standard cam chain in the lav500??
Maybe I am talking senseless... What I’ve seen in this forum/comunity I haven’t seen anywhere else... so why not!

regards,
Miguel
Click to expand...
I don't think you are talking nonsense Miguel. From the discussion activity on this issue there are some strong opinions, which is excellent, just what the forum is about and it would be good to have it included in Laverdaforum. When I first joined the forum I thought it was basically a forum for triples. My post there was a mixup regarding the cam chain issue, but mistakenly put in this Zane thread, however the issue is the same for the Zane bikes as the Breganze 500 bikes. If the Zane crankshafts are also pressed up, then the same solution with a new centre pin/sprocket would be just as valid for them, and as it seems that the crankshaft issue is the main problem for Zane bikes, it could be part of the standard update. Just look at what Vincent club has done with their big end problem.
The fact that the Zane bikes handling was world class, something I even heard from unlikely sources in Australia at the time, does in fact make them collectable in my opinion. Piet has a point that they have suffered longevity problems, but today very few of us actually pile the miles on any of our Laverdas.
 
If anybody feels the urge to dive in at the deep end, sure, go ahead. Red has a valid point with waiting years to regain any outlay, let alone making a (tiny) profit for all the trouble and effort. Of course making a batch of crank journals and cam sprockets isn't too difficult Quentin, but this ain't the Vincent Club we're discussing. Vincent prices have risen to stratospheric heights, their owners are rarely on the dole AND are mostly willing to pay through the nose to have even the trivialist of bits made to keep their wheels rolling. I usually only hear moaning when todays Laverda parts prices are discussed. Reckon a newly-made journal might retail for around €200, ready-to-fit sprockets another €100 plus €80 for a new chain. Add the regular crank overhaul costs and you're looking at a cool 2 grand, often quite a deal more than the bikes total value (unless the tyres have just been renewed;)). Don't see any pristine 500s changing custodians for much more than €3000 in the near future either.

As I stated before, I have long put down my rose-tinted glasses and try to view all bikes as objectively as I can. I can't do any more than point out weaknesses and shortcomings (enough others do nothing but praise the merits), things I have come to experience through working on Laverdas for 40 years or so. Emotions often throw all common sense out the window, but enthusiasm alone rarely compensates knowledge and ability. Unless somebody has cash to burn, and these uncertain times take a turn for the better, this isn't going to happen very soon.

While changing triple primary chains at the specified intervals of 25000km is often scorned upon, I don't really understand the panicking going on about a couple of timing chains that have only done a few 1000 km.:rolleyes:

piet
 
I really don't know why I'm writing this. But, hey ...

I am 100% with Red and Piet here. This isn't a technical problem. It's a money problem.

Pay a suitably hefty sum into Regina's bank account, and I'm sure they'll make you this special size chain. (Unless they've scrapped whatever might be necessary to make it, that is. But let's assume not. It was still in their catalogue in 2018 ...)

But who's gonna poney up a suitably large sum? With all due respect, not a handful of owners, I suggest. It will have to be a parts dealer with the necessary desire, courage, and financial strength. And they are few and far between - and their numbers aren't increasing.

3CMoto are the only people I can think of. Giuliano Cogo and his boys are aware of the problem, but I for one won't be holding my breath ...
 
Everything is a money problem.
500 Laverdas and derivatives are heading for the motorcycle graveyard.
It will always be possible to keep a 1912 Humber going simply and cheaply, not a 500 Laverda.

Paul
 
sfcpiet said:
And before everybody cries out "top shelf components used", what makes them so special? Nothing special about the brakes, just mass-produced Brembo stuff, used by dozens of other manufacturers at the time. Maybe they were special because the front discs warped regularly... Perhaps the WP suspension components were a bit above other offerings, but why the hell did they opt for a 15(!)mm front axle and piss-weak fork yokes? EVERYBODY at the time had recognised the need for more front end rigidity, even jap front axles and yoke clamps were growing by the year. Anyway, WP was soon replaced by Paioli, probably to cut costs. Alloy beam frame, OK at first glance... the inserted tubes for the induction hoses seriously weaken the headstock area, a minor frontal shunt will bend the frame at these points like a liquorice bar, the bloody thing only LOOKS strong. Tomaselli clip-on handlebars... with their constantly breaking clamps. Marchesini wheels... their finish and corrosion protection couldn't hold a candle to decade-older 18" GSXR wheels, which were certainly made in far greater numbers to a far lower price. Not to mention the overall build quality, just sticking a bunch of expensive components together doesn't necessarily result in a good bike.

It all looks nice and tempting from the outside, better to come in for a closer look. ;)

piet
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The voice of experience!

I bought this 668 which had been involved in a head on collision whilst being transported in a van. It came loose and impacted the partition between the driver and the rear. Twisted frame and yoke stem as Piet describes.
 

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I understand and respect all of those opinions, but basically you are condemning the next generation to see Laverdas 500 on their parents photo albums. Which one will be next? the 750? and next one?...

I never came to the idea of making money out of those bikes, I pay for them, I pay for parts, for some parts rebuilds, way more than they worth. Like me there are many others. Most of you, have a vast experience on this bikes, and when this happens, as Piet says, you get a very objective point of view, (like me with planes and travelling). However there is another world below the Laverda Elite (I consider the people in this forum the Laverda oracle, seriously), people who don't know how much those bikes cost, but they have seen my beautiful restored one (stupid example), they try it, and they want the same, when you tell them that the engine rebuild is 3000€ instead of 1.400€ because cams and cranks have to be rebuild, they are ok with it. Just look how much money people invest in cafe-racers with worthless bikes! In Spain CRD (Cafe Racer Dreams), they quote 20.000€ for a aesthetical converted R100RS! standard engine! (without the bike).

I am nobody in the Laverda world, however I have been fixing some Laverdas already and reading and talking with all of you for a while now. I constantly get consulted from other spaniards that are restoring their Laverdas at home! (somehow they find my number) and are lost with the parts suppliers and this sort of problematics (language is a barrier for many of them). I try to help them as far as I can. Many of them are very young and are spending on their bikes more than they worth, even in some 500s!

What I want to say is that, somehow we/I would like to work on a solution. Of course, I can't pay for the work to a Laverda dealer for making 10 sets because I don't have enough contacts to resell, or install them, and that would be again a short term solution, as it has been commented here before, most of the people doing it are reducing their workload or closing at all.

I see the solution as a sort of cooperative work between interested people sharing their knowledge, of course, if any of them can resell that parts/works to third parties in the future, great!

Fucking COVID has changed my life quite a bit, I don't fly anymore, so I am working in my little workshop in the mornings and in the afternoons I work in a real classic bike workshop with very good machinery, and some people with good knowledge, there is a turner next by that has been working with this workshop for decades now, with your help and indications, I could guide them to the process of rebuilding a Laverda crank! Maybe some indications who could design the sprockets? who could cnc them? Any of you has spare/broken Lav500 cranks, camshafts to test? I think we have a full 500 engine without cylinder head, but I have a NOS head that should go to Wolfang that I could keep....

I am just opening the melon (as we say in spanish) if nothing happens... I'll let it be... promised!! (in the end of the day I have found a spare 500 cam chain, so my kids will be able to enjoy my laverda in 20 years time, so I am happy anyway).:p:D

Miguel
 
redax5 said:
to design and manufacture new crank center pins and cam sprockets to use a common cam timing chain is no big issue in itself, but when doing so to even get a slight price break to lower the cost per set the person that is paying for this upfront is going to have to order at least 10 sets and then have them sit on the shelf for probably years waiting on a return on their outlay

who in this small Laverda world is going to do that especially for the 500 and Zane bikes that I regard as a fragile and flawed design
and right now all the major Laverda spare parts dealers worldwide are looking at either reducing their workload or closing up all togethet
and yes, Maxene and I do own a 500 Monty so we do have some experience with them though not as much as Piet, thankfully
Click to expand...

There is a parallel already existing. Falicon in the states recut the crank centers on later Z1000 Kawasaki cranks from Morse chain toothing to take the earlier roller chain. Now that is a very small niche market, Drag racers and the now rare roadracers are pretty much the only people who need this service. It's not easy to do either. I've actually seen one of their recut cranks - and it ain't pretty. But it works.
All this proves is that if someone has a perceived need - and the money to have it done - someone will do it.

With the ready availability of CNC machinery now, I'm sure someone will see an opportunity. Wether they will actually make money from it, I'd doubt.
 
sfcpiet said:
If anybody feels the urge to dive in at the deep end, sure, go ahead. Red has a valid point with waiting years to regain any outlay, let alone making a (tiny) profit for all the trouble and effort. Of course making a batch of crank journals and cam sprockets isn't too difficult Quentin, but this ain't the Vincent Club we're discussing. Vincent prices have risen to stratospheric heights, their owners are rarely on the dole AND are mostly willing to pay through the nose to have even the trivialist of bits made to keep their wheels rolling. I usually only hear moaning when todays Laverda parts prices are discussed. Reckon a newly-made journal might retail for around €200, ready-to-fit sprockets another €100 plus €80 for a new chain. Add the regular crank overhaul costs and you're looking at a cool 2 grand, often quite a deal more than the bikes total value (unless the tyres have just been renewed;)). Don't see any pristine 500s changing custodians for much more than €3000 in the near future either.

As I stated before, I have long put down my rose-tinted glasses and try to view all bikes as objectively as I can. I can't do any more than point out weaknesses and shortcomings (enough others do nothing but praise the merits), things I have come to experience through working on Laverdas for 40 years or so. Emotions often throw all common sense out the window, but enthusiasm alone rarely compensates knowledge and ability. Unless somebody has cash to burn, and these uncertain times take a turn for the better, this isn't going to happen very soon.

While changing triple primary chains at the specified intervals of 25000km is often scorned upon, I don't really understand the panicking going on about a couple of timing chains that have only done a few 1000 km.:rolleyes:

piet
Click to expand...
I’ve already had the chain done at around 20,000kms, I’m due another one in 7000kms, so in 6 months time if it gets the same use as before - once I get the bodywork back from the painters and it’s finished, only been off the road 14 years this April......

Alistair
 
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