sideshow
Hero member
We dont need to make 50, small batches from bespoke machinists are possible, and the prices wont be crazy, costly, but not vincent costly
Future for Zane bikes?
- Thread starter arancia
- Start date
Add the cost of engine disassembly and reassembly. Crank work , gaskets and the inevitable "while I'm at it" and you're looking at several thousand euro.
In Vincent world, it's complete new engines we're looking at for a bike with a stable value. Not a little know model of a little known marque. "Is it a Jota mate?"
Paul
sideshow
Hero member
Hi Paul I hear what you are saying, but remember there are people that just want to do this because we want to and because we can. If you put the scrap metal value on our bikes we all look like bloody idiots with time and or money spent on them , but I know this is good for my soul , and a fair few others do too , I think you must as well given you saved your sfc when it was all but destroyed. So why the hell not is the question I ask
Or did I misunderstand ?
No, no. You understand. Anything can be done including a billet crank. Where there's a will, there's a way and if converting a small twin crank for a more widely used chain, whatever rocks your boat.Hi Paul I hear what you are saying, but remember there are people that just want to do this because we want to and because we can. If you put the scrap metal value on our bikes we all look like bloody idiots with time and or money spent on them , but I know this is good for my soul , and a fair few others do too , I think you must as well given you saved your sfc when it was all but destroyed. So why the hell not is the question I ask
Or did I misunderstand ?
It's just that it's a dead end. The Laverda 500 and its derivatives are just too complicated to survive on anything other than as an individual passion.
MV 3s and Gilera 4s have been rebuilt from scratch, as has the 250 Honda 6. Fantastic achievements but not relevant to the ordinary motorcyclists most of us are. Or still are, I hope.
Paul
michipons
Hero member
- Location
- Palma de Mallorca
well, the idea is to make 1 or 2 or 3 or 5... however wants one, and a couple spare ones. What is more interesting for me, is having the design, the providers, and more important, the know how, which for me is worth by itself.
If in the future, some people are interested in rebuilding their 500 paying what it cost, great, otherwise, I will sleep better knowing that all my friends 500's have an extra life, and mine!
But lets see... for my actual knowledge the project looks too big... but I'll try
Miguel
PB-2, we ourselves have not made any 750 center pins yet
500 has the same press fit system but slightly smaller diameter, as I mentioned previously yes we can make them, no big issue there and I do have spare middle 500 crank pins in stock that I can use to copy and we could change the sprocket to a common size which is straight forward
Just involves working out the change in chain size against the available clearance in the engine etc but am certain it would not be a huge concern but I do wonder why Laverda themselves choose such an odd chain size
And then the big question, why do I want to spend lets say $7,000 AUD making up 10 sets of custom 500 middle crank pins and custom camshaft sprockets
I have way more pressing issues to spend my money on, just sent Arrow more then double that amount for triple conrods that I know I will burn through over the next 24 months, our Chev Pickup needs a very large bag of cash thrown at it, I need to order 60 pistons from Ross Pistons, etc
GregT
Hero member
- Location
- Christchurch NZ
You're right of course Red, your area is well established with the big twins and triples. It needs someone else to step up. This at least would broaden the range of marque specialist engineers and parts suppliers.
I've been there myself with batches of odd parts. I did a batch of 4 sets of close ratio conversions for Aermacchi gearboxes - for customers close to me. An Auckland based customer then financed another batch of 6 sets. Those sold so fast he came back and ordered a batch of 12 sets....
It took him two years to get a profit off that lot - but he'd covered his costs before they all sold. World market now tapped out, LOL.\
Without knowing the physical differences in chain pitch and roller size I don't know if simply recutting the OE center pins like the Kawasaki ones I quoted previously is feasible. If it is, the whole thing becomes much cheaper.
I've been there myself with batches of odd parts. I did a batch of 4 sets of close ratio conversions for Aermacchi gearboxes - for customers close to me. An Auckland based customer then financed another batch of 6 sets. Those sold so fast he came back and ordered a batch of 12 sets....
It took him two years to get a profit off that lot - but he'd covered his costs before they all sold. World market now tapped out, LOL.\
Without knowing the physical differences in chain pitch and roller size I don't know if simply recutting the OE center pins like the Kawasaki ones I quoted previously is feasible. If it is, the whole thing becomes much cheaper.
Tippie
Hero member
- Location
- Dr?bak, Norway
If the Zane centres are the same as 500, I have no idea, then the potential market is bigger than just for 500s. Regardless it is not a market but a solution possible within the owners budgets.
The Vincent big-end solution was done in the 60s from what I recall, well before they were worth millions of pesetas. Vincent owners who spend big money on their engines today do so because they ride them, some of them ride them a lot. They are rich and the cost of the bike is no big deal for them. Collector investors probably never even start their bikes, and that applies to any marque, all they do is follow the market.
It is clear Paul that you are not on the bandwagon for the solutions people are trying to come up with here. For you these bikes have no future, that is your choice.
arancia
Senior member
- Location
- Arizona, USA
To the nay-sayers, please let those who want to make a go of this do so without so much negativity. Without the positive spirit and those willing to give it a try we'll never have any more of the stuff that will allow those driven by passion and emotion (remember there's no rationale or common sense in playing with vintage motorcycles) to dream, play and perhaps succeed.
As my mother-in-law used to say to my sons when they were young, " if you've nothing good to say then it's good to say nothing".
I for one have greatly enjoyed all the Laverda models I have and still own for more than forty years since that first one that convinced me that passion to build something good was just as important as long term commercial success. I would like to be part of a positive community that supports those who who like to help those crazy ones among us who have the passion whether that be for the earliest or the latest models to bear the Laverda badge. Yes, as an engineer and a rider I can see the faults and short-comings of the various Laverda models I have but on the balance I've been delighted to ride long distances, thrash them around the race track, meet lots of good friends and have a lot of fun playing with my Laverda toys. Reality is that they've moved from the day-to-day practical and reliable transportation I needed in the 1970s into the toys category today but I'm OK with that and enjoy my toys and would like to think I'll be able to continue to enjoy them and will support all those who will step up to make that possible.
As my mother-in-law used to say to my sons when they were young, " if you've nothing good to say then it's good to say nothing".
I for one have greatly enjoyed all the Laverda models I have and still own for more than forty years since that first one that convinced me that passion to build something good was just as important as long term commercial success. I would like to be part of a positive community that supports those who who like to help those crazy ones among us who have the passion whether that be for the earliest or the latest models to bear the Laverda badge. Yes, as an engineer and a rider I can see the faults and short-comings of the various Laverda models I have but on the balance I've been delighted to ride long distances, thrash them around the race track, meet lots of good friends and have a lot of fun playing with my Laverda toys. Reality is that they've moved from the day-to-day practical and reliable transportation I needed in the 1970s into the toys category today but I'm OK with that and enjoy my toys and would like to think I'll be able to continue to enjoy them and will support all those who will step up to make that possible.
piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
Sorry, Red, I thought you'd had some made up by your CNC man for a swag of the twisted twin donks you did. Lee and I were thinking for the 500 it JUST MIGHT have been as simple as machining down the main bearing journals of the stepped SF centres used in creating the press-fit (rather than splined to 88 deg) std SF ones. Twin cam chain might make that a no goer.
Did someone clarify if the Zanes use the same cam chain pitch as the 500s?
Did someone clarify if the Zanes use the same cam chain pitch as the 500s?
Zane's use same pitch as the 500's, those are the only new chains I have left in stock and no, they are not for sale, all are already spoken for
Miguel just scored my last spare brand new Zane cam chain
PB-2, 750 crank pin is too wide and too large in OD to suit a 500, any crank pins made for a 500/600/Zane etc would need to be a specific pin for that application
If someone wants to get together 10 firm orders I will look at getting them designed and made, crank pins, cam sprockets, cam chains etc but I don't wish to carry the stock
I'll keep two sets for my stock, other 8 need to be firm orders with 50% up front, I would expect price to be around $700-$800/set AUD but need to confirm with our gear cutters
Let's see where this goes
Miguel just scored my last spare brand new Zane cam chain
PB-2, 750 crank pin is too wide and too large in OD to suit a 500, any crank pins made for a 500/600/Zane etc would need to be a specific pin for that application
If someone wants to get together 10 firm orders I will look at getting them designed and made, crank pins, cam sprockets, cam chains etc but I don't wish to carry the stock
I'll keep two sets for my stock, other 8 need to be firm orders with 50% up front, I would expect price to be around $700-$800/set AUD but need to confirm with our gear cutters
Let's see where this goes
You've misunderstood.
I'm all for people doing things to motorcycles. I love seeing people do things that have no economic or practical reason.
Only, solutions for 10 or 20 bikes worldwide is No Future.
There is no future for the Laverda 500 based bikes. The Zane ones because they were stillborn, the 500 and Atlas because maintenance and repair are becoming impossible due to technical choices and complexity.
There is no future, other than as curiosities for combustion engined land vehicles in the short term. When the major car manufacturers stop making combustion engines, within the next two or three years, petrol stations by the side of the road will disappear progressively just like the sellers of horse feed did.
The owners of Vincents or Broughs are far from all being rich. Just like owners of 750 SFCs. Some people have had them a long time.
If somebody has a good riders Vincent twin to swop for a rebuilt SFC Electronica. We could get talking.
Before it's too late.
Paul
Timescale is off the mark there Paul. I am working on major OEM projects at the moment (gasoline ICE) where the manufacturing period is 2024-2029. We can rest easy on petrol being available until our hips, knees and minds give out.
Ok, only a couple of years in it.
For Renault-Nissan, it's 2025.
And you're right, we should be able to continue riding around in our filthycut offs, pissed as newts, ramsacking bars and rapping any female between the age of 10 and 80, and a few males until our joints give up. As for minds?
Paul
piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
How did Mad Max creep into a convo about 500 cam chains??!! 
Yogi
Hero member
- Location
- Bellingen NSW Australia
Hi Red, I would like to put my name down for a firm order. Yogi
Not Mad Max, I was referring to the 1%ers.How did Mad Max creep into a convo about 500 cam chains??!!
We are the 0.000001%ers.
Terrible people.
Paul
michipons
Hero member
- Location
- Palma de Mallorca
Wow! You need less than me to get your hands on!
Another 2 sets for me! We have 3, need another 5. If we are serious on that, we could advertise it in other forums, facebook?
However for me, ordering this sets implies learning how to open this crank, change the center pin and reassemble, sending crankshafts around the world is something I should start to avoid due to crazy shipping costs and customs, even to UK is not an option anymore. Keith has my triple crank and head and I don’t know how he will send it back
.thank you Red for your implication!
Miguel
I think that the best for your crank at Keiths is to go and fetch it.Wow! You need less than me to get your hands on!
Another 2 sets for me! We have 3, need another 5. If we are serious on that, we could advertise it in other forums, facebook?
However for me, ordering this sets implies learning how to open this crank, change the center pin and reassemble, sending crankshafts around the world is something I should start to avoid due to crazy shipping costs and customs, even to UK is not an option anymore. Keith has my triple crank and head and I don’t know how he will send it back
thank you Red for your implication!
Miguel
When that will be possible.
Paul