Future for Zane bikes?

If the crank pin sprocket is too small in OD it can't be machined due to the main bearing journal size. Interesting that std centre is stepped, a la a custom twisted SF one and unlike the SFC, which is a straight shaft for main and web journal.

Surely the ratios, lengths, pitches and dias can be calculated quickly by one of the smart computational dudes on this forum?
 
michipons said:
A possible solution could be a dummy crank and cam sprockets printed in 3D, and try different options?
Click to expand...
You don't need to do that. If you have the shaft centre distance you can work out how many chain pitches are required and how much slack there will be in the chain. The calculations aren't complicated. Does anybody know the centre distance between the crankshaft and camshaft?
 
piranha-bro2 said:
If the crank pin sprocket is too small in OD it can't be machined due to the main bearing journal size. Interesting that std centre is stepped, a la a custom twisted SF one and unlike the SFC, which is a straight shaft for main and web journal.

Surely the ratios, lengths, pitches and dias can be calculated quickly by one of the smart computational dudes on this forum?
Click to expand...
The base circle of the crank sprocket can be smaller than the shaft. The Falicon Kawa cranks do just this. Then cut a clearance groove each side to allow for the sideplates. As I said - it ain't pretty but it works.
They finish up with a crank sprocket one tooth smaller than the OE Kawa roller chain sprocket which then requires special cam sprockets.
The camchain is I think two links shorter than the OE Kawasaki one. But the same pitch etc. OE tensioners and guides are used too.
They don't appear to break either. Plenty in use on higjh HP engines.

Pretty sure somewhere on t'net there's a CAD programme for working out chain centers and lengths. I was shown it once years back.
One of the chain manufacturers websites ?
 
Calculate the length of the original chain, pitch x no. of links, then divide by new pitch. You then have the number of links required for stock sprocket dimensions. Then, choose suitable tooth count to get as close as possible to the original diametres.

The new chain length cannot differ by much, otherwise the chain may not be able to be closed, or, if too long, the tensioner is out of its range. Skimming the head can cause the tensioner to take up a large part of its total adjustment range, even if a new chain is fitted. If a chain of 5mm greater length is fitted, the tensioner may no longer suffice. Sure, a longer screw can be inserted, but, at some point, the chain will start rubbing on the inside of its run.

piet
 
I suppose rather than being held hostage by Regina or another chain manufacturer to supply OE spec chain it might be the right course of action to look at engineering solutions. I am assuming a slightly different set of parts will be required for Breganze 350/500/600 engines and Zane 668/750 engines.
Perhaps the way forward would be for owners of these bikes to chip in to fund a development project to find the best solution in terms of both operation and cost.
I am more than willing to assist with this.
 
Andy J said:
I suppose rather than being held hostage by Regina or another chain manufacturer to supply OE spec chain it might be the right course of action to look at engineering solutions. I am assuming a slightly different set of parts will be required for Breganze 350/500/600 engines and Zane 668/750 engines.
Perhaps the way forward would be for owners of these bikes to chip in to fund a development project to find the best solution in terms of both operation and cost.
I am more than willing to assist with this.
Click to expand...
I might sound stupid here, but can some other company other than regina be used? There is a large Czech company that makes OEM chains for the automotive industry in general, Is it worth looking elsewhere?
 
sideshow said:
I might sound stupid here, but can some other company other than regina be used? There is a large Czech company that makes OEM chains for the automotive industry in general, Is it worth looking elsewhere?
Click to expand...
It makes sense to ask. Somebody know how tbis 500 pitch chain is defined? And how many links it has? Then we can forward the query to those people...

I am working already on putting a 500 engine on the bench to start the project. But I only have the lower part. I need cilinders and head with camshafts... if somebody has a dead 500 engine... he will get a set some day!😁😁

i have a NOS head, but without camshafts, and wolfang bought it.
 
I have asked Jason(The Chain Man) to see if others might be prepared to manufacture the chain, such as IWIS and DID, but yet to hear back from him. Unfortunately, despite 4 phone calls to chase up and internet enquiry, the guy at Regina UK has so far failed to respond - perhaps he is just very busy or worse unwell!!:eek::eek: Let's see what next week brings.
Adios,
Charles
 
Dellortoman said:
You don't need to do that. If you have the shaft centre distance you can work out how many chain pitches are required and how much slack there will be in the chain. The calculations aren't complicated. Does anybody know the centre distance between the crankshaft and camshaft?
Click to expand...
That is why I was thinking more in the "try and error" system, as I don't see the way to meassure the distance from axis to axis. At the end of the day, there is not much to try. First closest diameter with the new pitch to the old diameter, double teeth number for the cam sprockets, Chain doesn't close? one teeth less or one link more, whatever gives a less loose chain. Or the complete oposite for all previous steps.
It must be relatively easy to print in plastic three possible sprockets, the one with the closest diameter, one teeth less or one more, one more link one less link, from all 6 options, whichever gives the least loose chain... The winner gets CNCed

Option gets more complicated, or lets say, better chances to find a better winner, if we put in the equation different standard pitches?

I don't know how the chain pitches work... what are the possibilities?

Miguel
 
michipons said:
I have my engine apart... and a second half engine for the project, only missing cylinders and head.
But no idea how to meassure the distance from axis to axis with lets say a precission of 0’1mm?
Click to expand...
Dummy half crank with a center point turned on it, Dummy half cams the same. Assemble cases barrel and head. Measure.

Close enough for govt work....
 
Prob is you can't take one tooth off a cam sprocket - cos it has to be divisible by 2 to enable sync with the crank (half crank speed). One links is two pitches so you can't remove 'one pitch' ... unless you want to use a half link, like they do on single speed bicycles!!!
 
Breganzane,
first of all thank you for this clarification, but this arises now a few more questions...
breganzane said:
The original chain is 5/16" pitch and 112 links... so it's (nominally) 889mm. (it may be 8mm pitch, in which case it's 896 (which is a VERY important difference).
Click to expand...
Do you mean that the original chain could have been 8mm pitch?? because that is a metric size 05B... If that is the case, should be no problem to find a 8mm pitch chain?

Language clarification: pitches=number of links?

So, your idea is to take a 06B with 93 links (in case the original was 5/16"), of course changing all three sprockets? The problem comes when changing the sprockets, as the old diameter will be modified, so the earlier chain lenght calculation is not valid anymore, that is why i thought about trying different options with Todds 6D star treck printer :p.

Other option is to meassure distance from axis to axis to let computer do everything, but I still can't see how to do it... once all is assembled, how do you acces to this center point in the half crank?

piranha-bro2 said:
Prob is you can't take one tooth off a cam sprocket - cos it has to be divisible by 2 to enable sync with the crank (half crank speed). One links is two pitches so you can't remove 'one pitch' ... unless you want to use a half link, like they do on single speed bicycles!!!
Click to expand...
Sure...
 
michipons said:
Breganzane,
first of all thank you for this clarification, but this arises now a few more questions...

Do you mean that the original chain could have been 8mm pitch?? because that is a metric size 05B... If that is the case, should be no problem to find a 8mm pitch chain?

Language clarification: pitches=number of links?

So, your idea is to take a 06B with 93 links (in case the original was 5/16"), of course changing all three sprockets? The problem comes when changing the sprockets, as the old diameter will be modified, so the earlier chain lenght calculation is not valid anymore, that is why i thought about trying different options with Todds 6D star treck printer :p.

Other option is to meassure distance from axis to axis to let computer do everything, but I still can't see how to do it... once all is assembled, how do you acces to this center point in the half crank?


Sure...
Click to expand...
Hi Miguel,

If you have your engine apart is there any chance that you could measure up the ccam chain to get the following dimensions:
Pitch - 5/16" according to reports by others - (might be easiest done by measuring the inner distance between rollers adn the outer distance over the same 2 rollers, unless you can accurately pinpoint the centres?)
Roller diameter - 7/32" according to reports by others.
Width between inner plates.
Sprocket widths.
I have had a "Conversation" with another member of this forum who feels that he may be able to help in locating a suitable chain if he has the above mentioned dimensions.
Let's hope that we can find an alternative supplier.

Regarding an alternative size chain then I am sure that if we were to contact a chain manufacturer and asked them for help in the calculation of the design details they would be able to assist - I was looking at a technical document from Regina that goes into quite a lot of detail about how to select the correct chain so I imagine that others would have similar docs and any technical sales guy worth his salt should be able to assist as this must be a pretty common occurence for any chain application - te design team will have a basic spec of overall dims and then will need to fill in the details to determine the precise specs of the items involved, in this case the cam drive train.

Adios,
Charles
 
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