wanted - moto giro bike

Vince said:
In my experience kicking back is usually timing and I have the snapped right ACL to prove it. Don't know what else to say. That's from long years kicking XT500s and heaps of both 2 and 4 stroke Huskys. What's the timing Number and is that at idle or fully advanced? I don't remember if it's an EI or points. Does t have an Advance and is it doing just that, how's the woodruff key? I have snapped them on a Husky.
Click to expand...
Hi Vince

the ignition is digital with a control box. I had to make my own TDC mark and align. I know the TDC mark is dead on, and I know my timing of the digital ignition to the TDC mark is dead on. What I don't know is what timing changes the 4 separate dip switches do, or what the actual measured timing while running is. I have to get the carb sorted enough to get it idling reliably to then put a timing light on it.
 
Paul LeClair said:
What I don't know is what timing changes the 4 separate dip switches do
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need a bit more info from the supplier of the ignition system (Vape).

The 4 dip switches change the advance curve. However, I can't find any advance curve chart on their website. They just tell you the switch positions for various models of bike. Their switch positions for a Gilera 125/150 Strada are,
1 OFF
2 OFF
3 ON
4 OFF

Apparently that gives an advance curve of 24° at start (zero rpm?), then linear to 36° at 3,000 rpm and further up to 39° at 5,000 rpm.
Seems like too much advance to me, especially at start/idle.

You could try all switches OFF. That gives you a linear advance from 9° at start to 38° at 3,000 rpm. I only discovered that by looking at switch positions for other bikes.

The advance an engine requires is determined by a whole bunch of variables including revs, engine load, combustion chamber shape and size, compression ratio, fuel mixture, and probably a few others I can't think of. The one of those parameters that's most likely to vary from factory settings is compression ratio. You may have thicker or thinner base or head gaskets than the factory fitted. And if memory serves, you've replaced the cylinder head and piston, so the actual CR you've ended up with is a mystery. You really need to check it. The only reliable way to measure the combustion chamber volume is to measure how much oil it takes to fill it up to the bottom of the spark plug hole (use a burette or syringe).

Once you know the CR, you can make a more educated guess at the advance curve required.

There's 16 different combinations of dip switch settings that are possible. It would be very helpful if you could get a list of all the advance curves from Vape.
 
Dellortoman said:
You really need to check it. The only reliable way to measure the combustion chamber volume is to measure how much oil it takes to fill it up to the bottom of the spark plug hole (use a burette or syringe) - AT TDC!

Once you know the CR, you can make a more educated guess at the advance curve required.

There's 16 different combinations of dip switch settings that are possible. It would be very helpful if you could get a list of all the advance curves from Vape.
Click to expand...
Once you have the volume of the chamber at TDC, add this to the swept volume (bore x PiR-squared x stroke) then divide that total by the chamber volume = actual CR. Well worth doing on any motor as it reveals the ACTUAL CR, not what the factory states. Even more important on anything you've modified, as Cam rightly points out.

The fact that it's kicking back plus has loads of comp on the the kickstarter makes me think that advance curve is way too hot - especially at start (again as Cam rightly points out).
 
Once it's going I suppose you could graph the timing advance with a liming light and degree wheel just to check. Fun times ahead
 
If it's got 24° advance at start up, be careful of your ankles on that kick start.

In my opinion, a kick start is the most "motorcycling" way of starting a bike. The final touch to a well set up machine. An easy kick will confirm that you've got it right.

Paul
 
One of the reasons I like Ignitech ignitions is that you're not restricted to pre-programmed advance curves. You can program exactly what you want the unit to do.

Having a bunch of pre-set curves is pretty useless if you don't know what each curve does. It's very strange that Vape doesn't provide a graph showing all the advance maps in the installation guide, like DMC and Sachse do. What reason could they have for keeping that information to themselves?

The Vape ignition system is also unusual in that it cuts the 12V supply to the coil (to make the spark). Every other ignition system I've ever seen interrupts the circuit on the ground side of the coil. I don't suppose it makes any difference where the primary side of the coil is switched, but Vape goes against convention by interrupting the positive feed to the coil. The primary circuit in the Vape coil appears in their wiring diagram to be grounded through the body of the coil. Not that it's particularly relevant to how your bike runs. But it's interesting, and worth knowing if you're trying to diagnose a fault on the side of the road with a multi-meter and wondering why (with a battery-coil ignition) there's no power to the coil.
 
Last edited:
thanks for all the input. I have asked VAPE very directly, several times now, for the info on the ignition/advance curves and effect of each of the 4 dip switches. The only response has been to set all 4 dip switches to OFF. Don't know what the big secret is...... The problem with fiddling with dip switches when you don't know what each dip switch does is thefear of the unknown and possible risk of damage

I went with the VAPE system as I wanted 12 volts, decent charging, and bright lights. Overkill? yeah, for the ignition maybe, but the LED headlight and tail light can be seen from space....;)

I am now sorting the carb, got the leaks fixed, had a good look with a magnifying glass at the various bits, the needle is so worn it has a notch worn in it, presumably the needle jet is similarly worn. Carb internals for this little carb are surprisingly pricey. I found a needle sizing chart, wide range of options, but I have no idea which of the many choices might work and each needle is $23 USD, each needle jet is $50 USD +, etc.. I already have a selection of main jets. To start with the sorting process I am ordering a new stock sized needle, and new needle jet, new idle mixture jet in the stock size and a couple of larger idle jets.

I now have the bike starting reliably on first or second kick, but the idle is too low even with mixture screw in the ball park and mechanical idle screw dialed to the max. I have been trying to get carb jetting info from Gilera 150 owners on the Gilera FaceBook Group
 
That business of VAPE keeping their advance curves secret would be enough for me to never want have anything to do with their ignitions. I'd also warn other people off buying them. Sorry Paul :(

I emailed them to ask for a chart of their advance curves myself. No reply so far. In the meantime I've managed to find a few of them from the descriptions of the advance for various bikes. In the installation instructions for each model of bike they give the dip switch positions and say something like "linear advance from 9° at start to 34° at 3000rpm then stays at 34° above 3000rpm." So you can plot it in Excel. So far I've discovered about 8 or 9 curves that way. However, I can't guarantee they're correct because there may be different models of their ignition box. I've just selected kits that have a similar looking ignition box to Paul's. The results are in the attached spreadsheet. I've numbered the curves 1-16 according to their binary order, 0000, 0001, 0010, 0011, etc. with 0 being OFF and 1 being ON for each dip switch.

Curve 3 (0010) is the one they tell you to select for your Gilera Paul. It stands out from all the others because it starts at 23° while all the others start at less than 10°. I'd be selecting a more sensible curve if I were you.
 

Attachments

Something in the back of my mind: Paul made a new timing mark at TDC. Is there another factory mark in a different location? I can’t remember. That may explain the strange timing?
 
Paul LeClair said:
thanks for all the input. I have asked VAPE very directly, several times now, for the info on the ignition/advance curves and effect of each of the 4 dip switches. The only response has been to set all 4 dip switches to OFF. Don't know what the big secret is...... The problem with fiddling with dip switches when you don't know what each dip switch does is thefear of the unknown and possible risk of damage

I went with the VAPE system as I wanted 12 volts, decent charging, and bright lights. Overkill? yeah, for the ignition maybe, but the LED headlight and tail light can be seen from space....;)

I am now sorting the carb, got the leaks fixed, had a good look with a magnifying glass at the various bits, the needle is so worn it has a notch worn in it, presumably the needle jet is similarly worn. Carb internals for this little carb are surprisingly pricey. I found a needle sizing chart, wide range of options, but I have no idea which of the many choices might work and each needle is $23 USD, each needle jet is $50 USD +, etc.. I already have a selection of main jets. To start with the sorting process I am ordering a new stock sized needle, and new needle jet, new idle mixture jet in the stock size and a couple of larger idle jets.

I now have the bike starting reliably on first or second kick, but the idle is too low even with mixture screw in the ball park and mechanical idle screw dialed to the max. I have been trying to get carb jetting info from Gilera 150 owners on the Gilera FaceBook Group
Click to expand...
Some on the Guzzi singles list have replaced the worn Dell'Orto with a Jikov carb. Straight swap apparently.

Paul
 
It's certainly no secret that a 4-stroke engine does not require 23° advance upon starting!

Reckon this could be sorted quickly by applying basics. Choose a curve that moves from 5-10° to about 35° (or wherever full advance is specified), that should get the ball rolling. Fine-tuning from there.

Absolutely no use swapping jets, etc until the ignition is where it belongs. As long as the engine somehow pops along and can be strobed, ignition timing can be set. I'd use the stock specs as a starting point, if compression has been upped considerably, maybe 3-5° less advance than stock can be considered.

50 bucks for a jet? They've got you by the balls... :rolleyes:

piet
 
Dellortoman said:
That business of VAPE keeping their advance curves secret would be enough for me to never want have anything to do with their ignitions. I'd also warn other people off buying them. Sorry Paul :(

I emailed them to ask for a chart of their advance curves myself. No reply so far. In the meantime I've managed to find a few of them from the descriptions of the advance for various bikes. In the installation instructions for each model of bike they give the dip switch positions and say something like "linear advance from 9° at start to 34° at 3000rpm then stays at 34° above 3000rpm." So you can plot it in Excel. So far I've discovered about 8 or 9 curves that way. However, I can't guarantee they're correct because there may be different models of their ignition box. I've just selected kits that have a similar looking ignition box to Paul's. The results are in the attached spreadsheet. I've numbered the curves 1-16 according to their binary order, 0000, 0001, 0010, 0011, etc. with 0 being OFF and 1 being ON for each dip switch.

Curve 3 (0010) is the one they tell you to select for your Gilera Paul. It stands out from all the others because it starts at 23° while all the others start at less than 10°. I'd be selecting a more sensible curve if I were you.
Click to expand...
Hi Cam

wow, amazing work, thanks.

Vape by email and in the intsructions that came with the kit specified all dip switches to OFF

your spread sheet will allow me to do a little experimenting, thnaks so very much.

and yes, i am dead certain I have my new TDC mark absolutely correct, I made it with a degree wheel and dial indicator, and i am absolutely cerain I have the VAPE TDC mark timed dead on to real TDC.

I am trying to find a more reasonably priced source of jets and needles, now doing the final things for prpearation for government inspection to be able to register the bike as a "historic vehicle", fitted a mirror yesterday, etc.
 
minor finishing work, finished the wrapping of all the rest of the wiring harness now that I know all the electrics work, turned my attention to the issue of the longer shocks having raised the bike and resulted in the kick stand not being long enough, my youngest son turned up just in time as I was pondering how to deal with the center stand. Many of you may remember Marc from his many years attending Wolfgang's Laverda rallies with me, he is now 30 and the sole salesperson at the Calgary Aston Martin/Bentley dealership. Time flies......

two great minds came up with a very Canadian solution, presently in the prototype stage, involving two hockey pucks..... :cool: :ROFLMAO: 😉 See photos. The outer rim of the hockey puck is even appropriately roughly textured to be even more fit for purpose.
 

Attachments

  • hockey puck 1.jpg
    hockey puck 1.jpg
    133.7 KB · Views: 36
  • hockey puck 2.jpg
    hockey puck 2.jpg
    142.2 KB · Views: 35
  • hockey puck 3.jpg
    hockey puck 3.jpg
    168.4 KB · Views: 34
  • hockey puck 4.jpg
    hockey puck 4.jpg
    96 KB · Views: 36
  • hockey puck 5.jpg
    hockey puck 5.jpg
    107.3 KB · Views: 36
Paul LeClair said:
minor finishing work, finished the wrapping of all the rest of the wiring harness now that I know all the electrics work, turned my attention to the issue of the longer shocks having raised the bike and resulted in the kick stand not being long enough, my youngest son turned up just in time as I was pondering how to deal with the center stand. Many of you may remember Marc from his many years attending Wolfgang's Laverda rallies with me, he is now 30 and the sole salesperson at the Calgary Aston Martin/Bentley dealership.

two great minds came up with a very Canadian solution, presently in the prototype stage, involving two hockey pucks..... :cool: :ROFLMAO: 😉 See photos.
Click to expand...
What a great idea! Radius looks perfect. Is garage time in Canada always done so smartly dressed?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top