Zane starter motor running backwards ?

The original has a small break at the top I may reuse for the moment - I had noticed that my lager box had got a little damp quickly

Yes Paul you are right for a change - Halfrauds


…. I do have a gallon of pva glue though
 
Sir Sidney Ruffdiamond said:
So I rang the the starter place and they said loosen the bolts and turn the boss 180 degrees so I did this and it made no difference still ran anti clockwise - so then tried spinning the back plate 180 degrees - still anti-clockwise - the back plate is the same as I delivered there and looking at the diagrams above I have the right back plate - all they have done is change the brushes and clean the commutator up - if I reverse the polarity it runs the correct way - mystified !!!!! View attachment 89497
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It’s a bit of an odd one. DC motors are easy enough to reverse, although normally I’d expect to have to change the armature polarity in respect to the fields…
I don’t suppose the brush plate is upside down..? Or (more probably) has the apprentice welded the positive brush to the wrong post?
Either way, giving it back to the shop is the best, perhaps they’ll learn something from it, like how to record what the motor does before they tear it apart 😉 Easy mistake to make, gawd knows, and so do I 🤣
 
Andy said:
It’s a bit of an odd one. DC motors are easy enough to reverse, although normally I’d expect to have to change the armature polarity in respect to the fields…
I don’t suppose the brush plate is upside down..? Or (more probably) has the apprentice welded the positive brush to the wrong post?
Either way, giving it back to the shop is the best, perhaps they’ll learn something from it, like how to record what the motor does before they tear it apart 😉 Easy mistake to make, gawd knows, and so do I 🤣
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It’s a mystery - yes polarity changed its direction - good point on the tear down - I should have marked it but when you pull the end cap off you pull the brush plate as it’s connected by the brush cable - the brush plate can only fit in two places 180 degrees to one another because the cap bolts go through it to the front casting - if you turn the brush plate over it would change the position of the brushes relative to one another but it would very difficult to assemble as the post connection would have to come through the brush plate somehow
 

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Sir Sidney Ruffdiamond said:
Can’t be the cable to the starter relay comes directly from the positive post of the battery and the earth goes on to the engine !
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Have you changed the battery? My Cagiva had the wrong battery fitted ( terminals wrong way round) and the guy had swapped the terminals on the starter relay to accommodate the wrong battery BUT had left the red rubber covers on.
When I bought the correct battery the cables weren’t long enough so I couldn’t connect them back to front but took me a while to work out what was going on. Have heard of a faulty alarm reversing polarity but not encountered it myself.
 
Yes have checked the battery connections - I returned from our pub meet on it and it was a bit hesitant but did start so I had been saying that it needing doing - can’t put the battery on wrong or you wouldn’t be able to do the terminals up - also tested on a spare battery - still running the wrong way 😬
 
A different backplate will be needed. The only way to reverse a universal series motor (that's what these starter motors are) is to either reverse the field windings or the armature windings. That's what the different backplates will be doing.
 
Pauls said:
A different backplate will be needed. The only way to reverse a universal series motor (that's what these starter motors are) is to either reverse the field windings or the armature windings. That's what the different backplates will be doing.
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It does seem like that - but the starter has worked for 5 years in the same bike - I opened the back before I took it to the shop and took pictures -now it seems to be the same backplate with new brushes in it but your point maybe the only answer !
 
Apparently it’s fixed so will be going to fetch it today and will ask 😁 hopefully it will improve the starter performance can’t be any worse - at least now I know how to get it out quickly - got a few awkward jobs to go like getting the the coolant fluid back in as the bleed is in an impossible position under the front fairing and that’s not coming off
 
Andy said:
I don’t suppose the brush plate is upside down..?
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You're good, Andy 👏.

We'll have to see what Sir Sidney says when he gets the now corrected motor back; but going from his photo, yes it is ...

I haven't got a photo of a 2-brush plate fitted the right way up, and have had to steal this from Philippe's tuto on fitting a 4-brush plate. But I think the difference is pretty obvious nonetheless.

Brush plates.jpg
 
Got it back and it’s going the right direction ( tested with an old battery and junp leads ) but when in the bike it doesn’t turn over at all just the starter relay clicking - even directly connecting to the battery - no resistance in the cables - changed battery for my Jota one with the same result

The pic in Andy’s post was one I took when I couldn’t figure out which way round the brush plate went !

So currently up a creek without a paddle 😁
 
Sir Sidney Ruffdiamond said:
Got it back and it’s going the right direction ( tested with an old battery and junp leads ) but when in the bike it doesn’t turn over at all just the starter relay clicking - even directly connecting to the battery - no resistance in the cables - changed battery for my Jota one with the same result

The pic in Andy’s post was one I took when I couldn’t figure out which way round the brush plate went !

So currently up a creek without a paddle 😁
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Tighten all terminals and check earth strap to motor - corrosion on bolts etc- failing that claim on the insurance!
 
Make sure all the brushes are making good contact with the commutator. My wee starter repair bud would put the starter into a vice in such a way he could use a lump of timber to check the thing could take aload to rule out the starter as being the problem.
 
well its running again and the starter works slightly better than it was - have been through the tribulations of the starter running backwards and then reversing the magnetic barrel to get it to run the correct direction - bastard job - but i am now an expert dismantler - however the case of the starter looks a little second hand as it been in and out at least 4 times and its very tight - removing the large coolant hose is the only way or lift the tank - the hose is a lot easier but then i have had to faff to get the same amount of coolant back in !
 
Sir Sidney Ruffdiamond said:
well its running again and the starter works slightly better than it was - have been through the tribulations of the starter running backwards and then reversing the magnetic barrel to get it to run the correct direction - bastard job - but i am now an expert dismantler - however the case of the starter looks a little second hand as it been in and out at least 4 times and its very tight - removing the large coolant hose is the only way or lift the tank - the hose is a lot easier but then i have had to faff to get the same amount of coolant back in !
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Sounds like a real pain, almost like they made it difficult on purpose!
I don’t understand “reversing the magnetic barrel”, did you swap the field connections or turn the whole thing around? Any photos?
 
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