750 hydraulic clutch conversion?

breganzane said:
Hi @Laverdalothar ,
The kit I used was part number 2100309 to suit 2010-16 Kawa Z1000. Here's one:
www.ebay.com.au

Magura 2100309 Hymec Hydraulic Clutch Conversion System | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Magura 2100309 Hymec Hydraulic Clutch Conversion System at the best online prices at eBay!
www.ebay.com.au
The hose length was fine for my Jota with Renthal 'flat' one piece bars, I expect it would also be fine for stock jota bars for anyone unfortunate enough to still use those. :) Really high bars might require a longer hose, perhaps there is a suitable alternative kit. Note the lever comes in silver or black, silver looks better on the old clunkers, so be sure any alternative number you get has the silver lever.
I copied the esteemed @CJMAC who trod this path before me with his SF2. He initially fitted it with the DAM extended lever and the operation was TOO LIGHT and was unbalanced with the other controls. A return to the stock release lever makes it perfect.
As mentioned, it comes pre-bled and does not require disassembly of that to fit.
The only slight modification I made was the adapter sleeve shown here:
View attachment 88056
The shiny silver bit is a separate tophat shaped piece to adapt the slave cylinder to various bikes. The hole in the Laverda crankcase is M8x1.0, so the through diameter is ~7mm. The sleeve that came with the kit is 8mm outside diameter, so I turned it down to 7mm. It's a bit iffy because the inside diameter of that sleeve is 6mm from memory, so only 0.5mm wall thickness. In reality, all it does is centralise the slave cylinder and hold it a bit more securely, you could probably do without it altogether. Maybe then the stroke might not quite work, in which case put a few 8mm washers over it to match the thickness of the step in the tophat piece. The best option might be an M8x1.0 bolt drilled to 6mm thru and the head turned down to just a couple of mm thick like the adapter sleeve, but it's really not necessary. The cylinder is stabilised by the internal spring which exerts a slight pressure on the release system.
It's a brilliant bit of kit that just works, is easy to fit, requires no mods to the bike, is mineral oil based so does not absorb water, is away from the front sprocket so does not absorb chain grease and dirt into the hydraulics.
The kit is perhaps a bit pricey, but it's probably competitive or cheaper than the alternatives and retains the look of the original cover.
Can you tell I like it? :LOL:

Cheers
SteveB

(Post edited to correct diameters above)
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Hi Steve,
I have one question, how do you do with this set the fine adjustment? I assume that just like the real cable, you need to adjust the rod so that in “relax” position, it just touches the clutch lever, so that the cylinder has enough travel to actually clutch, doe this cylinder come with this possibility?

I am seriously thinking to buy one, and a redax one, one for each bike😆.
I barely ride my 750 because of the clutch strength, i don't like to admit it but this is the reason why is always the last on my garage line.. and I don’t want to have the 1200 in the same situation. My 1000 has standard cable and works beautiful, it is just a little softer but below my limit.

@breganzane trying to find one set to buy in Europe I saw there are like hundreds of sizes… I guess it has to be the one you bought? Or are other references that would work? The ref. of yours is 2100309

Best regards,
Miguel
 
Hi Miguel @michipons,

Like any other hydraulic clutch, there is no adjustment necessary. I can go into that if you like but suffice to say it's fine.

Riding a bike with horrible controls is not fun. All 750 and triple have essentially the same cable system, and as you've noted some are quite fine and some are almost unrideable. This is generally down to setup; plate thickness, springs, pushrod projection, cable type/routing/lubrication, handlebar lever geometry and condition, etc. But for me I'm hydraulic all the way, I find them much more smooth, progressive and accurate.

I can't comment on any other part numbers working or not, the important sizes are the slave cylinder pullrod projection, body diameter, and hose length. The number quoted above just bolted straight onto my Jota and my friend's SF2. Must be possible to source in Europe!

Cheers
Steve
 
Dear all,
Dear @breganzane,

Today I have received the Magura hyd clutch. I ordered one with part number 2100309 like @breganzane did. Unfortunately this reference doesn’t fit. The rod is too short. It is effectively 35mm. After realising that doesn’t fit, I took some meassures and investigate a bit more. The rod should be around 45mm, and respecting the 10.5 piston diameter that Breganzane said to be correct force, that leads me to part number 2100001, same hose length, same piston diameter but 45mm. The drawing that somebody posted before gives distance from the outer hole to the clutch “clip” where the cable attaches of 55mm.

This magura piston has a hose that is necessary to center the rod that meassures 10mm thus giving the exact number of 45. I imagine that this will work.

This centering bush is a mm too wide to enter the thread of the crankcase, so optimally you should substitute it for something else with less diameter, I will print something to substitute it.

I have order this new clutch and will let you know if it fits when it arrives, now I have to return the other one because at a price of 300€… not worth to keep it.

I will use this Magura for the 750, for the 1200 I am waiting for the cover from Red, with Brembo clutch MC and PS15 new Brembo MC for the brakes to have same on both sides.

IMG_8009.jpeg
 
Decided to take a different route from the Magura Hymec, my OCD would not allow that silly little master to be paired with the Kawaski item I'm using for the brake. I managed to source a matching 14mm M/C from some sort of Ninja via eBay, even came with a hose in excellent condition. That was the easy bit, the following will be slightly offensive for some. :rolleyes:

Searched Aliexpress and found a dirt cheap 12.7mm slave and placed an order. A bit of mucking around had it hooked up and working, but lever action was heavy and the limits of the slave wouldn't allow the full stroke of the handlebar lever... back to the www to order a 14mm item. Fitted, bled and success. I have done away with the imo ugly extended clutch throw-out lever, fitted a nicely polished virgin, ie, not hacked about, sprocket cover and now enjoy a delightfully light clutch pull. Weather has prevented me test riding, but the bike rolls easily with 1st gear engaged and the clutch deployed.

There is a caveat though. In my quest for a light as possible lever action, I used the clutch throw out mechanism from what I suspect is an early 750 with the steel-bodied clutch. Should it turn out that the throw-out is inadequate, I will fit the later mechanism for those extra 2mm. The slave cylinders are also available in 16 and 19mm, if necessary, this should more than off-set the increased effort required for the later mechanism.

Total outlay for all bits including the cover gaskets was €85, including the first slave that I may be able to use in some other application. This compares quite favourably against the Magura kit, especially as the handlbars have retained their symmetry. The slave cylinder seems to be well made, time will tell how reliable the system is.

Haven't made the reservoir mount yet, so no pics of the master. Thinking of printing a little bracket instead of fabricating one...

piet
DSCN0912.JPG
 
Nice job Piet. I dunno why you think it might cause offence to some. It achieves the hydraulic conversion without modifying any Laverda parts, so I reckon it would be preferable to Laverda purists than hacking at the sprocket cover. The next bloke could put the cable system back on if so desired. Sure, the slave cylinder is probably made in China but it's hard to avoid Chinese components in pretty much anything these days.

That's a neat little slave cylinder. It never occurred to me that you could get slave actuators to emulate the cable action (I've never been motivated to look for them). Now that you've done the R&D, I'm almost tempted to do something similar if it gives a better action than the cable. Also, my cable is past its use-by date. I noticed a busted strand at the lever end the other day.

It's not a total surprise that the 12.7mm slave cylinder hit its limits before the master cylinder. A travel of 1mm at the master would produce 1.22mm travel at the slave. The heavy lever action is no surprise either.

With your 14/14 piston sizes, it's nearly a 1:1 ratio the same as a cable, so I guess any lighter action is down to eliminating cable friction.
I say nearly 1:1 because it's a pull-type slave cylinder, not push. The actuator shaft will reduce the effective slave piston area by a little bit.
 
Yes Cam,

It's the chinese🤫 bit that would offend some people. In truth, the slave is well made, my concern is if the sealing of the pull rod will stand up long-term to the slight arc through which the rod end travels. But this would be a problem affecting all such slave cylinders, no matter what their provenance.

Apparently, these cylinders are meant to replace the cable on all sorts of popular bikes, but I've never found the clutch pull of an Africa Twin for example, so heavy that it would require a conversion of some sort.

piet
 
That is a really neat solution Piet. I had never seen these pull type slave cylinders before either. A far simpler solution to the inbuilt slave cylinder system that was used by the factory that seem to be fraught with problems. Some tinkering on the horizon.
 
There's a lot of shitty (not fit for purpose) stuff and bogus knock-off products that come out of China, but there's also some good stuff to be found if you're prepared to shop intelligently and take a bit of a risk. Their CNC machined aluminum components like that slave cylinder are generally pretty good. As good as you'd get anywhere else, but for a fraction of the cost.

The political issue is another thing altogether. People can make their own decisions as far as that's concerned. It would be hypocritical for me to take the moral high ground on that because you'll find Chinese products amongst my stuff. I own a 2008 Benelli FFS! (Benelli was bought by Qianjiang Motor Group in 2005).
 
Classic examples are those cheap as-chips Power Tools, eg $60 sabre saws. I worked for a bunch who loved to buy them. Their failed point was Metallurgical. The material they used to hold the blade would last about a month, a waste of time to me. My $ 400 plus Sabre Saw is still fine 15 years later.
 
Vince said:
Classic examples are those cheap as-chips Power Tools, eg $60 sabre saws. I worked for a bunch who loved to buy them. Their failed point was Metallurgical. The material they used to hold the blade would last about a month, a waste of time to me. My $ 400 plus Sabre Saw is still fine 15 years later.
Click to expand...
That sort of stuff is OK for the DIYer that needs such a machine for 5-10 cuts. Pros need proper stuff that can handle years of abuse, that's the reason it's so expensive. I wouldn't expect the same service from €30 chinese (or whatever) tool compared to a €600 Fein or Hilti machine.

I once had a customer that ran an auto body shop, he'd buy €10 angle grinders by the dozen. He argued that his employees wouldn't look after the tools he supplied and that they'd destroy a Fein or Bosch just as quickly as the bargain basement item! In some cases, it's a matter of doing your maths... ;)

piet
 
Hi Piet
I'm not sure I understand which mechanism you're referring to?

(There is a caveat though. In my quest for a light as possible lever action, I used the clutch throw out mechanism from what I suspect is an early 750 with the steel-bodied clutch. Should it turn out that the throw-out is inadequate, I will fit the later mechanism for those extra 2mm.)

Reason I ask, my SF2 engined SF could do with an extra 2mm clutch actuation.

Regards
Gerald
 
Gerald said:
Hi Piet
I'm not sure I understand which mechanism you're referring to?

(There is a caveat though. In my quest for a light as possible lever action, I used the clutch throw out mechanism from what I suspect is an early 750 with the steel-bodied clutch. Should it turn out that the throw-out is inadequate, I will fit the later mechanism for those extra 2mm.)

Reason I ask, my SF2 engined SF could do with an extra 2mm clutch actuation.

Regards
Gerald
Click to expand...
Guckst du...

https://laverdaforum.com/threads/750sf1-clutch-pushrod-protrusion.104979/ post #23

I stumbled over this a while back trying to solve some clutch inadquacies. The earlier steel-bodied clutch had less friction plates than the later alloy type, so less axial movement was necessary to separate the plates. Later mechanism yields about 2-3mm more movement, but lever effort increases.

piet
 
Hi @michipons

Odd that it did not fit, as that is the part number I bought and I copied the part number from my friend who fitted it first to his 750 (which also fitted). Do you have the slave cylinder sitting right up against the crankcase as I have done? (see post #29 in p2 of this thread). Sorry if I have misdirected you.

@sfcpiet that looks like an even better solution, very clever and cost effective too. Typical to aliexpress stuff, if in doubt over the quality, buy two.. still about the price of a beer (in Oz at least). :D
 
Put together a long winded blurb about how clever some Chinese manufacturers are, based on my business dealings with them, but deleted it …. just in case.

In short:
Some Chinese manufacturers do things that are “not possible” according to their USA and European competitors.

Oddly, in one particular case, the Chinese didn’t know their competitors claims, they just found a way of doing it due to the necessity to reduce costs. They were shocked when I told them that what they were doing, wasn’t possible.

Necessity being the mother of all invention.
 
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