Best guesses on RGS "clutch" issue?

Paul LeClair said:
on the topic of a hard ridden vintage Laverda with an older experienced rider pitted against modern superbikes with inexperienced riders, it was a slightly surreal experience. I don't usually ride in groups, and this recent group I only knew two of the other riders who had organized the ride. The various superbike owners were sort of turning up their noses at the RGS before we set out, various jokes about whether it and I would be able to keep up and making sure I knew where they were headed so I could meet them there if they lost me......

not sure what the RGS top speed is, but 9,000 rpm in top gear is probably close to 130 mph? The top speed of the various superbikes I was with had to have at least 40 - 50 mph on the RGS. The riders were a different thing altogether. While they could blast past me on the straights where rider skill means nothing, they would tip toe around the corners while I blasted past them in the corners at likely twice + their cornering speed, where it counts. Some embarrassed faces at the first refreshment stop, and new respect for an older bike and older rider. At the first stop one fellow asked me if the brake light on the RGS worked, as the RGS brake light never came on into and around the corners ::)

also my first ride on the new Conti radials, quite impressive.

Today I am really feeling the energy exertion of the hard riding yesterday and it will likely take a few days for me to recover. It was worth every second of the riding, and I am planning to try and get out for a ride next weekend again, likely this time on the ZX14...... ;)

thanks for all the educated guesses on the RGS drive issue, I will get to partial disassembly and hopefully diagnosis this coming weekend, will report back with whatever I find.

Paul LeClair

ps  with the oversized 1200 high compression pistons etc. together with the petrified rubber engine mounts the bike has to be kept spinning above 4,000 rpm anyway to keep my hands from being buzzed to sleep, so it only makes sense to keep the revs up! Smooth as silk from 5,000 rpm up, seems to want to rev forever, no signs of distress at 9,000 rpm indicated. If the engine does have to come out, I will take the opportunity to install new engine mounts "while I am at it...."
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Here we go!
 
Maybe a broken key on the primary drive crankshaft sprocket.

In any case i hope it's an easy fix.

cheers

bazzee

Actually just showing my ignorance as it's on a spline... :-X
 
Dellortoman said:
Well done! That was a convincing display of ignorance. But then you messed it up by admitting you knew it's a spline. :D
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In a moment of anxiety I thought that I should check. I could have just deleted the post, I suppose.  :P

cheers,

bazzee
 
I learned to ride fast (for me anyhow) in the early 80's when I had a 500 Pantah and the guys I rode with had GS 1000s , CB900 whatever and the only way I could keep up with them on the twisty bits, not that we had many on the prairies of western Canada (from your pictures I'm guessing that the Highwood Pass road west of Longview) was roll off, no brakes or a little brake, dance through the gears, lean way over , nail the throttle and hit the exit going up through the gears with as much speed as I could keep, whereas the 'big bikes' would go into the corners heavy on the brakes, tip toe through the corner then pull the trigger on the straight as they stood the bike up. Just read about your health issues Paul as I've had a few of my own so good on you man for telling the Grim Reaper to Fuck Off, no better way than to flog the RGS, now go flog the shit out of the ZX14. BTW still have the original brakes pads  in my 1200 albeit with only 45000km. :D
Stu
 
Excellent therapy Paul, keep at it.

The perfect demonstration that it's the rider that makes the difference, not the bike.

Remember the Mead and Tomkinson B50 at Montjuic Park. And many others.
Have you got a B50 for next time?

I remember an epic ride with a friend, several times French Classic racing champion. Hi son has now taken over, even winning the British 750 championship on a Norton, a few years back.
Friend was riding a Velo Thruxton, I was on my SFC. He lost me.

Paul
 
if you're lucky it might just be the gearbox sprocket has lost it's retaining bolts and detached itself from the output shaftshaft... Had that happen on an XT500 once out in the Sahara... ::) ::)
 
AndyW said:
if you're lucky it might just be the gearbox sprocket has lost it's retaining bolts and detached itself from the output shaftshaft... Had that happen on an XT500 once out in the Sahara... ::) ::)
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The dangling chain would be an obvious clue.

Paul
 
Theoretically a RGS makes about 28 km/h/ 1000/min without any slip, so 9000/ min would be about 252 km/h.
Paul, your bike seems to be pretty fast!

I would like to have my SFC with P1 camshaft so fast ;-).

Hope you will find an easy way to fix your clutch issue and all the best for your health.
Andre
 
Great read, Paul. I love the feeling of 'surprising' the unwitting  :D

Weird prob - I'm taking a bet on the primary chain. Then again, a gearbox shaft sounds likely too!
 
andre g said:
Theoretically a RGS makes about 28 km/h/ 1000/min without any slip, so 9000/ min would be about 252 km/h.
Paul, your bike seems to be pretty fast!

I would like to have my SFC with P1 camshaft so fast ;-).

Hope you will find an easy way to fix your clutch issue and all the best for your health.
Andre
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Hi Andre

the RGS engine when I built it was given lots of internal ceramic coating (combustion chamber, valve faces, piston tops, and exhaust tract) and friction reducing coatings on most of the moving bits including piston skirts, cams, etc), fancy Carillo H beam rods on new crank bearings supplied by Wolfgang, head porting assisted by Wolfgang, and 1200 barrels with oversized high compression J & E pistons supplied by Wolfgang.

It also has original speedo and original tach, which I have never had calibrated, so who knows how far out they are. I have no real idea how fast I was actually going. The bike pulls hard to an indicated 9,000 rpm in every gear, including top gear, and I have occasionally run past that with no indications of engine distress. After I fix whatever the current "no drive" issue is, I will take a GPS speedo app with me on my iPhone and compare to actual speedo readings to see just how inaccurate the speedo and tach really are...... :o

my point really is not however fast the RGS is or isn't, it is how much these more inexperienced riders could benefit from more rider training or race schools to greatly improve their cornering speeds on their superbikes that they are not really experienced enough or skilled enough to make proper use of. I guess another way to look at it is when they slow way down in the corners they are at least recognizing their skill deficits and are less likely to hurt themselves, it just makes them annoying to try and ride with.

Paul LeClair

ps day two after my spirited ride, I am paying the price resting up at home for the second day, but still smiling.....
 
I run my smart phone as a gps on the dash and its speed readings even when we are in likly no holds bared cop free areas make the old 200 plus stories not so real aproaching 200 and slighty past maybe but its corner speed thats by far the measure of both skill and fun riden with plenty of busa owners and its rare where they corner as well as there ability to use the straight line bike speed using my phone now sorry for no punctuation
 
Yep, nothing annoys me more than the rider in front slowing down for the best bits!
And I wouldn?t bother calibrating your speedo, it?ll just ruin the story  :LOL:
 
I'm a lot slower in the corners than I used to be when I was young and stupid. Back then I thought I was indestructible. Now I'm painfully aware that I'm not. I don't ride anywhere near the limit because you never know what's around the bend. Could be something as simple as a few wet leaves that can cause you to come unstuck, or worse, some idiot car driver on the wrong side of the road.
 
Vince said:
I run my smart phone as a gps on the dash and its speed readings even when we are in likly no holds bared cop free areas make the old 200 plus stories not so real aproaching 200 and slighty past maybe but its corner speed thats by far the measure of both skill and fun riden with plenty of busa owners and its rare where they corner as well as there ability to use the straight line bike speed using my phone now sorry for no punctuation
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Vince some people make a living out of no punctuation:

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/zero-punctuation-we-happy-few/

Cheers

bazzee
 
Paul, the engine vibration could be loose rear motor mounts.
On the RGS they can loosen up. I had similar problem with vibration and some one on this forum said to check them and mine were loose. I guess you will find out when you pull the motor.
 
as I can't even get the RGS on to the center stand by myself since abdominal surgery, I enlisted the assistance of my youngest son, Marc, now 28. Some of you may remember him from all the rallies he attended with me at Wolfgang's over the years.

all kinds of granularish fiberish particles in the oil. Managed to actually get the bike into gear for real, now a connection between the clutch shaft and the drive chain sprocket, but with lots of play, lots more than I ever remember being there.

clutch stinks, steel plates are scorched bluish/black, about half the fiber plates are almost bald, granules of clutch friction material coming loose when rubbed, not much left on the fiber plates. Clutch has less than 3,000 miles on it since last replacement, bike has less than 8,000 original miles on it.

I am wondering if the loss of drive is that simple, that the clutch simply gave up under power after hours of continuous hard use?

Also, can the heavily scorched steel clutch plates be re used? Maybe sand them or bead blast them to clean them up? Or do I need to replace them with new? I am ordering all new fiber clutch plates.

the "slack" in the clutch shaft is way more than I remember. Look at the first photo, see the index mark? Then look at the second photo, that is how far the clutch basket and shaft can be rotated to the right before the front sprocket moves the drive chain to the rear wheel. The clutch basket is not moving on the splines of the shaft, the slack is in the connection between the clutch shaft shaft and the front drive sprocket on the other side of the cases. The front sprocket is tight on the splines. That "slack" can't be correct? Comments?
 

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Dellortoman said:
I'm a lot slower in the corners than I used to be when I was young and stupid. Back then I thought I was indestructible. Now I'm painfully aware that I'm not. I don't ride anywhere near the limit because you never know what's around the bend. Could be something as simple as a few wet leaves that can cause you to come unstuck, or worse, some idiot car driver on the wrong side of the road.
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Hi Cam

the sad thing about my cornering story is that these roads are all long smooth sweepers, flat out on the RGS in top gear around those bends is nowhere near the actual cornering limit, makes it all the sadder the inexperienced riders on their modern superbikes were slowing down to tip toe cornering speeds. I ride those same roads and same sweeping corners on my ZX 14 at speeds well above the top speed of the RGS, no tip toeing required.
 
Hey Paul maybe the high engine revs you were experiencing was due to a huge amount of clutch slip? Possibly the springs didn't have enough tension allowing the clutch to slip at high engine speed, this would create huge amounts of heat destroying the friction plates and distorting the crap out of the steel driven plates you will find that they are most likely toast like the friction plates.
That amount of movement in the drive doesn't mean a lot as this will vary depending on what gear that the gearbox is in,  the lower the gear the more rotation of the clutch drum, its probably not slack but just the reduction in the gearbox.
 
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