Building a race bike

Thanks Marnix, you should pop over some time and take a look, you would enjoy yourself and my coffee is great! 😀
Thank you all for your comments, hopefully it will work 🤣🤣

J
The moment I will be able to do that I will certainly drop by to see your candy store Julian! Health issues were in the way the last few years, but I'm slowly but surely recovering.
 
I agree it is an odd rule, takes away the ingenuity. Imagine then actually the Britten could not race Under those rules?
Given that they did actually sell 7 or 8 Brittens, under that rule it would become eligible for the period in which they sold the first...

The whole encroaching technology thing is a can of worms. I don't know what period Julian is building this for so can't make specific comments but the clutch is illegal here for everything pre 1982. I actually drafted the rule and pushed it through banning slipper clutches in pre 82/72. If you have a genuine ELR Kawasaki, yes, you can use it and it's slipper clutch - it was the only example in period. As there were only 20 - odd of them made I don't think it's likely we'll see one used.
The upgrading of brakes on "safety" grounds i object to - vigorously. Period brakes can be pretty good with modern pads and linings. But 4 -pot calipers on pre 82 bikes - no.
I see pics on other forums of big post-classics professionally built. Late model Honda forks and 4 pot calipers seem to be accepted by people who don't have involvement in the class. Once that sort of upgrade is generally accepted it's more money to be spent staying competitive.
It's becoming a vicious circle - one gets away with something so everyone else has to do it too.

BEARS racing is a different thing. Red's spaceframes are an interesting exercise in making a post classic competitive against moderns. There are only a few mods needed to make one eligible for true post-classic class racing too - if he could be bothered. Looks like they're havinng fun where they are.
 
Hi
The classes I intend to race in allow period special frames like Egli etc providing you can prove it was used in period. You are not allowed for example a Guzzi frame with laverda engine unless it was used in period and you can prove it, so a triton is allowed etc.
Brakes are either drums or discs and callipers strictly as per period.
Engine must be of outward appearance of th unit you are using and this need to be of the relevant period, valves are the same quantity as original, cam in same place and quantity. Sensible rules actually and manageable.
Hopefully they will stay that way.

More things done today, pics and updates Monday.
Regards
J
 
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Saturday work,
Weighed the old and new clutch, although I had already taken considerable weight from the old clutch is still tipped the scales at 900g more than the new setup, weighed complete with chain and idler gear for a correct comparison.
And the diameter of the new clutch is 140mm where as the old was 166mm so an even bigger difference when in motion.

Also looked at the gears in the gearbox, there was not much I could do to lighten the general gears without weakening them so looked hard and did some analysis, The outer Gear set were 3mm wider than all of the others, Although these 4 gears are in use more than the others, they do not take any more actual load than the others so I see no reason for this other than longevity in a road bike. So these were reduced in Width by 3mm each to match the other gears. Quite a weight saving although I did not do a before and after weigh in. I will of course shot peen all the gears before use and ceramic coat everything, including the clutch and gear drive.

Now waiting for my new output shaft and outrigger bearing housing from Red, Which will go through the same lightening treatment.
(Red promised not to shoot me 😁)
 

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If the selector drum - or semicircle anyway - is anything like the triples, there's weight savings to be made there. The grooves are worth hand finishing to smooth off awkward transitions.
 
Hi Greg
Yep, it’s very similar and already pared down no end, I copied an original sfc from stef and added some more ideas.
Like you say, smoothing the transitions does seem to make it feel freeer.
The clutch seems to release very freely so hopefully this will also help.
Going to go over it in my “off week” over Christmas and list all the titanium studs etc I can order ready for when I need them. Already got k nuts for everywhere non stressed and ARP 12 point for everywhere where strength is important.
Regards
J
 
That website sounds a bit snake oil to me. It waffles on about "methodical computer controlled process" and releasing of nitrogen vapours. I don't have a comprehensive grasp of metallurgy but I know a little bit, and to me that smells a bit like bullshit. It sounds like advertising propaganda based on the "baffle them with scientific sounding jargon" principle.

I'm not saying the process doesn't work, but I don't think it has anything to do with what they describe. Hardening by thermal treatment is related to the crystal structure of the steel. When steel is cooled, it changes crystal structure from relatively soft austenite crystal structure to harder martensite structure. If the martensite structure can be retained when it's returned to normal temperature, it'll be harder. That may nor may not be a good thing as far as a gear set is concerned because harder generally means more brittle, so it may not be so good at handling shock loads.

Anyway, thermal treatments for steel vary depending on the carbon content and alloying metals. What works for one piece of steel may not work for another. I think it's unsafe to assume that cryogenic hardening will work for any random lump of steel.

As always, I'm happy to be proven wrong and would like to hear a more expert opinion. Do we have any metallurgists amongst the forum membership?
 
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I only know one, Martys mate Chris, the bloke who first build Steve Bs race twin. I went to the Wiki page from that Gearbox bunch but that went to massive tangents in food transportation etc. I read about this process ages ago and thought it might be worth a chat.
 
Hi both,
Diameter fixed and changed to width, thanks for pointing it out. Silly me :D

Yep, very simply explained, Austentite and Martensite structures differ in easy terms by imagining Austentite as a pool of crystals jumbled up and all over the place, heating the material to its correct phase changing temperature will align all the crystals into a uniform and stronger structure, this is not necessarily harder, but it is always stronger / tougher. You then need to cool the structure in a controlled way so as to keep this transformation, otherwise it will simply change back again. Toughness is exactly what we are looking for in gears. Hard working gears are almost always made of a fairly tough softer material and case hardened to give a good surface strength and a tough strong core. Cryo treatment has been around for a long time and is not new, it is however hard to do correctly as the temperature needs to be controlled correctly and the re-warming must be done at the correct rate, just as in the opposite heating and cooling metal treatment process. It is no good just throwing your bits in a bath of liquid co2 for an hour and then getting them out and expecting them to be miraculously transformed, you could actually damage them rather than improve them. Leave it to specialist heat treating companies who know exactly what they are doing and have the correct equipment to do a correct job. And take their advice.

Some years back I had a terrible problem with a competition car breaking drive shafts, every up-rated and supposedly indestructible aftermarket shaft known to man was tried and lasted minutes not even hours. after advice from higher intelligence I had some driveshafts made in a material called Maraging 300, the specialist company who I took them to for heat treating, (Maraging steels are very different to normal tough steels as they contain almost no carbon and need a special process) I asked their advice and showed them the conformity ticket for the material. They were doing drive shafts for Williams and McClaren at the time and these shafts were made in the same material (I knew as the man that made theirs, made mine) but they would not tell me what exact treatment they would use, only that "it will work" It did. I never broke another drive shaft even after 5 years of hard use. These were the most expensive but Cheapest halfshafts I ever had.

I agree the bull written in that Cryo info sheet is very suspicious.

My gears will be shot peened and ceramic coated, I am also hoping that due to the light weight of my bike being probably 100kg lighter than a std SF and the max power revs being double so lowering the torque to very similar numbers as std I should get away with it for a reasonable time, I will also strip the engine after every race meeting so can inspect very regularly. I may need a special set of gears but in theory, the gears that I have should fit the power / torque curve very well. We will see.

Regards,
J

As a PS, it may be interesting to know that all metals form Martensite over age, the percentage depends of course on the material spec, but they do change and this is why you would have heard that the 1500 hp BMW F1 Turbo blocks used in the 80s by Brabham were second hand 2002 blocks, this was not quite true but they were several years old and the castings had gone through many heat cycles before being machined and used which made them massively more tough.
 
I vaguely remember seeing something similar about aged blocks in US drag racing, all billet now from what I hear. One of the locals was buying something from the Sainty Top Fuel blokes and was shown the massive block of alloy before the CBC began. Love hearing about the above stuff, always interesting, it's a shame so much is usually kept close to the chest.
 
4th gear on the mainshaft is the weak link Julian and not certain if I have any billet ones left in stock
they do not like big power, found that out very early in building my race engines thus made billet 4th gears

will answer about the outrigger bearing/cover via email, only just got home tonight from racing
 
4th gear on the mainshaft is the weak link Julian and not certain if I have any billet ones left in stock
they do not like big power, found that out very early in building my race engines thus made billet 4th gears

will answer about the outrigger bearing/cover via email, only just got home tonight from racing
Cool, Nice advice Red, thanks,
Do you make the gear integral to the shafts?
If not then I will make a new gear or complete set of gears if needed later.
To be honest I am not in a rush but want to get a roughly sorted gear set for testing and then go from there.
Once I know what gear ratios I need I will get a new box made complete. Hopefully I can manage with 5 gears as wasting time in the shifts is not a good place.
Thanks
J

PS.
How did you get on?
 
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4th gear on the mainshaft is the weak link Julian and not certain if I have any billet ones left in stock
they do not like big power, found that out very early in building my race engines thus made billet 4th gears

will answer about the outrigger bearing/cover via email, only just got home tonight from racing
As did Rob racing his Jota to the top in UK (classic bears wasn't it?). Smashed cases due to that 4th gear.
 
Your driveshaft story reminded me of one the old man told. He was called in to advise on material for a single-seater driveshaft as it kept breaking whatever they used. He took one look at it and said - You've got the universals out of phase - it'll always break like that. Sometimes it's simple...

Your gear life is also going to depend on the circuits you run on. Honda RS250's have quite a light box for the HP they develop. On GP circuits they seem to last quite well. Here on our short circuits where 2nd and 3rd are used a lot, they break those gears regularly.
 
I’ll almost definitely end up making a complete new set of gears as strong as my budget will allow Greg, but will need to test something first so the std box in as good condition as I can get it will suffice for the initial testing.
At the end of the day I could also re-do the primary drive to gear up the box, run it faster, less torque and slow it down on the final. Just like the F1 boys do. To be honest if Red can make his gears work I doubt I will have a problem with a lot less weight and torque. We will see.
Fun stuff. J


Reasons for things breaking are always analysed first, but at the end of the day sometimes you simply need better materials.
My driveshafts are still going strong after more than 5 years with me and about 10years with the new owner. I had 25% more torque than the rest and a 30% reduction gearbox to add to very big tyres. It was not a surprise to snap shafts, just that people’s unbreakable was not at all what they promised.
 
You know how John Britten made it.
He did not design his own gear box but used the almost strongest on the market a GSXR 1100 gear assembly. Would this be an idea?
 
Cool, Nice advice Red, thanks,
Do you make the gear integral to the shafts?
If not then I will make a new gear or complete set of gears if needed later.
To be honest I am not in a rush but want to get a roughly sorted gear set for testing and then go from there.
Once I know what gear ratios I need I will get a new box made complete. Hopefully I can manage with 5 gears as wasting time in the shifts is not a good place.
Thanks
J

PS.
How did you get on?
we just made a billet version of 4th gear, has worked well

Broadford race meeting was cancelled Saturday afternoon due to a fatality, very sad
We did get in two races using the spare bike as Broadford is not a power track so decided to give the spare a run for a change, plan was to use the main bike Sunday
On the spare Matt dropped our F4 lap record by 2 seconds so was going well until lap 4 of 8 in the second race when the gearbox failed but he still had fourth gear, was jammed in fourth so rode her to the finish to come in 2nd

Got home last night and dropped the oil, sump plug magnet has part of a gear tooth on it so one of the gears has failed, will find out today
Most likely either 3rd or 2nd

What we do need though is a wider rear tyre so when the engine is apart am going to start working out how to fit a 180 rear on the bikes
Matt is riding the wheels off of these bikes and the 160 rear is the limitation now
 
You know how John Britten made it.
He did not design his own gear box but used the almost strongest on the market a GSXR 1100 gear assembly. Would this be an idea?
No. The layout of the box with a direct top on the side opposite the clutch is almost unique today. If you used a Japanese - or practically any other modern box - the final drive would come off the layshaft. Which raises problems of sprocket height and position vs the swingarm.

Red - a 180 will fit on a 5in rim as has been said before. I'd suspect that tyre clearance is your problem rather than rim. A coarse file can be used on the extreme edges of the tyre...Can gain you around 5mm.
 
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