Eu U-turn on petrol cars

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Steve G. said:
Well I didn’t say that, I simply displayed the lack of fiscal base needed to build an all electric vehicle fleet, as Tesla was during the very early days, where vast amounts of US taxpayer cash was needed early on, and constant purchase rebates to new car owners.

Of course this rebate system has run its course here in Canada, as 8-10 yrs of attractive tax rebates has built aN electric vehicle base over 20%, which gives electric cars free road tax, free HOV lanes, free parking, even free electricity at some shopping malls. Reduced income to regional jurisdictions responsible for road maintenance soon found out that these electric cars often weighing 40% more than same size ICE vehicles, are causing much more wear of the roads.all rebates are gone now, and sales are crashing.
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Steve, if you want to make people change, you have to make the change attractive or at least affordable. Sure BEV's were more expensive in the beginning (just as every new technology that is produced in lower numbers and that needed a complete new development of almost all components). To convince manufacturers there is a market, you need to help create demand. Once the deman grows, you can take back some of the subsidies and help other companies/verticals to grow their market. This is the job of a government, it helps create jobs and with the growing number of jobs, it produces more demand and more tax paid, which re-funds the spending done in first place.

BEV's are needed to make us independend of Dictators and regimes that finance wars, surpress their people, limit free press and free speach, work against constitution and enrich themselves. For the very same reason, we need Heat pumps, green electricity etc. etc. etc. Good if the government of a country understood that and helps their people to cope with the change, done f.e. by subsidies

Same btw. happend in France and Germany roughly 15 years ago with conventional/ICE cars: Mrs. Merkel and the government copied an Idea the then elected french government successfully did already: if you scraped your old car and bought a brand new one, you got something like 3.000€ cash back from the government. Worked fantasticly and as so many people bought new cars, new jobs were created, companies that previously struggled (VW, Mercedes, Opel etc.) now had big piles of orders that they almost could not handle, the supply industry boomed (which completely struggled before) and we had record numbers in Taxes - allthough the government spent 3.000€ on every car. Why? Because 3.000€ was in average just 5% while VAT was 19%. So - on every bought car, the government EARNED actually 14% tax still. Cars, that wouldn't have been bought if there hadn'd been subsidies...

Same was with EV's. When I bought my Tesla, i got 5.000€ back, wich was 9% at that time. Still 10% extra for the Government. I wouldn't have considered a brand new car without that rebate (allthough I have to admit, that the car manufacturers calculated that in and simple rose their prices by that 5.000€...). Because of no used car market existing really (technology was to new), the prices for the few used cars were almost the same as the new car with the rebate. So - why should I buy a used car then, when I can get a new one for the same nett price? Still, at the end everyone was happy.

Same goes for PV-Systems, new heatings (Heat pump), Isolation of the house (roof, walls) etc.: Government supports that, wich supports the industry, wich creates jobs, which causes more demand, wich brings more money into the government.

Subsidies aren't something bad, they are simply a tool to steer the demand and - if done right - bring more cash to the government to be hopefully invested wisely (ok, the last one was a bit cynical , but... ;) ). The point is, the programms need to be timed right and it needs a lot of campaigning to make them work.
 
Problem is Lothar there is a world of bad information out there. Even though EVs are now fairly established, and the facts are now known, I still encounter disbelief when I tell people I can do a return trip to London for about 6 UK pounds of electricity, where in my ICE car it costs about 40 pounds of diesel.
 
very true. you see it in this thread, how many wrong "information" have been taken as granted/facts.

I have been part of car forums for Audi, Mazda MX5 (for my son's car), Skoda etc. and if you look into the technical area of these forums, it's full of questions around issues, broken things, things that are not working, how to fix this and that and so on.

On the Tesla Forum, that's no different. However, most of the issues are Software related (and get fixed over time) or related to how to best handle a certain setting etc.. Rarely you see someone with a dead battery (and if so, it's mostly either an Model S with 300.000+ km on it or a Model 3 with the same milage). Charging seems to be absolutely no issue in Germany at least, but we have people that drive around Europe with their EV with no serious issues.

Are all EV's trouble free though? No. Neither have been all Smart phones, Laptops, Tablets or other pieces of technology.

Is driving an EV 100% the same as an ICE car? No, it's not. Some things are better, some are different and yes, "re-fueling" (charging) is different and needs some change in mind. If you drive an ICE car, you "charge" when it's empty. If you drive an EV/BEV, you charge when you can, you try to avoid full charging if possible for most of the time as a) 80-100% takes much longer and b) it's not good for the battery (see the according mode on your iPhone, too...). As 95% of all daily commutes are below 50km, this should not leave you stranded at the road... Simply plug it back in when you get home and limit it to 80% charging. Job done. Car allways full enough for a potential 300 - 400km ride.

It's no black magic, it's just a different piece of technology that is more efficient, more cost effective and more environmental friendly. And if you like a car with tons of torque, you will fall in love once you pushed the "pedal to the metal" first time... The torque on these cars is really impressive...
 
Laverdalothar said:
very true. you see it in this thread, how many wrong "information" have been taken as granted/facts.

I have been part of car forums for Audi, Mazda MX5 (for my son's car), Skoda etc. and if you look into the technical area of these forums, it's full of questions around issues, broken things, things that are not working, how to fix this and that and so on.

On the Tesla Forum, that's no different. However, most of the issues are Software related (and get fixed over time) or related to how to best handle a certain setting etc.. Rarely you see someone with a dead battery (and if so, it's mostly either an Model S with 300.000+ km on it or a Model 3 with the same milage). Charging seems to be absolutely no issue in Germany at least, but we have people that drive around Europe with their EV with no serious issues.

Are all EV's trouble free though? No. Neither have been all Smart phones, Laptops, Tablets or other pieces of technology.

Is driving an EV 100% the same as an ICE car? No, it's not. Some things are better, some are different and yes, "re-fueling" (charging) is different and needs some change in mind. If you drive an ICE car, you "charge" when it's empty. If you drive an EV/BEV, you charge when you can, you try to avoid full charging if possible for most of the time as a) 80-100% takes much longer and b) it's not good for the battery (see the according mode on your iPhone, too...). As 95% of all daily commutes are below 50km, this should not leave you stranded at the road... Simply plug it back in when you get home and limit it to 80% charging. Job done. Car allways full enough for a potential 300 - 400km ride.

It's no black magic, it's just a different piece of technology that is more efficient, more cost effective and more environmental friendly. And if you like a car with tons of torque, you will fall in love once you pushed the "pedal to the metal" first time... The torque on these cars is really impressive...
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One of my sons has a Tesla. He once asked if I'd like to see how it accelerates. I confirm that it does.
Last spring he drove from Northern France to Wales and back in 24 hours. No issue.
Paul
 
Just wondering about ICE`s and their relative contribution to worldwide greenhouse gas CO2 emissions ........ ( as opposed to " localised " pollutants such as soot , particulates , and NOx ....... which can also sort of double as a greenhouse gas , but don`t worry about that for now ... ) .......

According to a 2020 report published by the International Energy Agency ...... ( no idea who they are , but all very clever people I`m sure ) ........
..... then road transport accounts for 15% of all worldwide CO2 emissions ........... and their definition of road transport includes buses , trucks , taxis , cars ..... and yes , even motorcycles ........... nice to get a mention in an official report for once ..........

So if you discount trucks , buses , taxis and so on , then what proportion of that 15% of CO2 emissions can be attributed to ICE cars ..... ( assuming the information in their report is correct ) .......... 8 -10 % maybe , at a guess ?

So the increasing adoption of the EV may well make a dent in that 10% of CO2 estimate ......... hooray for all that and so on .......

... but what about the remaining 90% ? ..........

Things have obviously moved on since five years ago ................ but countries like India , and China , despite it`s vast expansion of renewably sourced energy , will still be burning coal until 2070 and beyond ...........

........and of course Trump has just recently pulled the plug ( literally ) on offshore wind ......... and wants to drill for ( or pinch other people`s ) oil .......


So ...... EV`s ........ representing a significant contribution to reducing CO2 emissions ............... or just pissing into the wind ?


You could argue ... ( as does the ASDA supermarket chain ) .... that every little bit helps ........ But whilst we await the eventual electrification of aircraft and global shipping routes , then is a little bit ever going to be enough ?


Or to put it another way ...........

How many EV journeys will you have to make to negate the environmental consequences of Elon Musk`s next Space X launch ....... given that the Space X fuel of choice is liquid methane ........ a greenhouse gas with a warming effect of up to EIGHTY times that of CO2 ?


Better plug in your EV and start driving now , before Elon sends the next one up ............. :) ..............
 
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As a recently retired Tesla repair centre technician, living in a jurisdiction with perhaps the cheapest hydroelectric power on earth, and the most expensive gasoline/diesel in North America, I get to view certain things not easily available. For example the cost of electricity from a Tesla supercharger, needed locally. When working on those things a tech must shut them down for safety reasons, so the owner cannot run you over from his cell phone at home, or listen to you swear at the car, , or watch you scratch you private parts. Digging into the screen I see things pop up automatically,,,,like the cost of a supercharger to get home from the interior to the big smoke. Sitting in a forlorn commercial parking lot 15 minute walk from everything in -25C weather, waiting an hour for their 80% to get home, for more $ than I can do it on gas with my 16 yr old pickup truck. I find the whole thing illogical, but happily wave and smile as I drive by the local ‘bank’ of superchargers which occupy a large section of a local mall I live nearby. It’s been good paychecks the last 10 yrs wrenching Teslas, but honestly,,,,, I’m fuckibg done!!!
 
Laverdalothar said:
Not sure why people still want to air untrue information. A combustion-chamber engine driven car is up to 60 times more likely to catch fire than a BEV. Why are you not sending around 60 pics of burning standard engine cars?

We make ourselves a propaganda slave of the lobbyists that want to keep the standard engine as they have money in the petrol industry if we spread these false information, even if they are covert in "funny" pictures.

What seems to be funny isn't really. It is about manipulating us so we keep supporting the petrol industry to get richer. This is very short term thinking, really...
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Lothar,
Just to complete: Catching fire is one thing, being on fire and trying to fight it is another story. This is a serious question if you have a large EV bus depot f.e.
Jeroen
 
Beucars said:
Lothar,
Just to complete: Catching fire is one thing, being on fire and trying to fight it is another story. This is a serious question if you have a large EV bus depot f.e.
Jeroen
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I got caught in a traffic jam, waiting for an EV to burn itself out on a two lane motorway. Once it was toasted, and removed, the lane it was in was closed because the tar had to be removed and replaced…..

I drive about 1,000klm a day, and this holiday season I’ve seen more broken down vehicles than ever before …. of all types of propulsion systems.

Discussing this with another driver, he pointed out that in the main it was vehicles that were far outside the city boundaries, heading off to visit their country cousins and suggested it was because many people these days wouldn’t know where the bonnet/hood catch was, let alone what they were looking at once it was opened. A fair and valid point.
 
chrisk said:
I got caught in a traffic jam, waiting for an EV to burn itself out on a two lane motorway. Once it was toasted, and removed, the lane it was in was closed because the tar had to be removed and replaced…..

I drive about 1,000klm a day, and this holiday season I’ve seen more broken down vehicles than ever before …. of all types of propulsion systems.

Discussing this with another driver, he pointed out that in the main it was vehicles that were far outside the city boundaries, heading off to visit their country cousins and suggested it was because many people these days wouldn’t know where the bonnet/hood catch was, let alone what they were looking at once it was opened. A fair and valid point.
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Most vehicles break down these days due to an electrical problem, all types of propulsion....
 
Battery upgrades are the first sort of mods that have appeared for older EVs. BMW i3s can double their range from that of the best they ever offered with new battery packs from China. There are lots of YouTube videos from all over the world attesting to how simple it is. I believe the cost is $5000 to $6000 for the pack and installation is basically plug and play.
 
chrisk said:
I guess they don’t compare cars while charging…..

Bloody hell mate, look at what you’ve done to your Tesla ….. is that a vanilla or leather smell air freshener hanging from the mirror?
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95% of Tesla options are software purchased off his satellite. Only hardware is the roof racks. Which fit like shit, and always cause the roof glass to crack when customer puts stuff on the roof racks.
Biggest mod by far is a change in color with a full wrap. Which sucks for me, because when I changed the glass (front,,,roof,,,back,,,) the wrap shops put the wrap to just under the tiny rubber trim attached to the glass. Problem is, all Tesla glass is installed at the factory crooked, early in alignment with the body ridge. I always asked my boss in these cases “ want me to I stallit straight or lined up with the wrap?”. He always said straight. So he would have to explain to the Tesla owner why his wrap didn’t hide the original paint underneath the edge. Customers always lose their ‘chiclettes’ on this one!!
Fuck me,,,bad memories coming back!!
 
Steve G. said:
As a recently retired Tesla repair centre technician, living in a jurisdiction with perhaps the cheapest hydroelectric power on earth, and the most expensive gasoline/diesel in North America, I get to view certain things not easily available. For example the cost of electricity from a Tesla supercharger, needed locally. When working on those things a tech must shut them down for safety reasons, so the owner cannot run you over from his cell phone at home, or listen to you swear at the car, , or watch you scratch you private parts. Digging into the screen I see things pop up automatically,,,,like the cost of a supercharger to get home from the interior to the big smoke. Sitting in a forlorn commercial parking lot 15 minute walk from everything in -25C weather, waiting an hour for their 80% to get home, for more $ than I can do it on gas with my 16 yr old pickup truck. I find the whole thing illogical, but happily wave and smile as I drive by the local ‘bank’ of superchargers which occupy a large section of a local mall I live nearby. It’s been good paychecks the last 10 yrs wrenching Teslas, but honestly,,,,, I’m fuckibg done!!!
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Steve, this is exactly what I said above: If you work on those things, you only see the problems that you have to fix. A bit like Piet who does not like the Zane bikes, because he saw the same faults over and over again and they are really shit to work on compared to the Breganzes, where you can reach everything easily. Once fixed, you do not see the bikes anymore so you don't have positive feedback, you only ever have to deal with the negative side of it...

To the replacement cost of a battery: have you checked what a BMW M3 Engine costs if you need a new one? Have you checked what a Porsche engine cost just to repair it? On a BMW, a new engine with exchange is about 20.000€ (and they blow up regularely, way before they reach the 150.000km mark...), on a Porsche, an overhaul can be as high as 30.000€ for a normal aspirated engine, for a Turbo it can be way beyond 50.000€. Somehow, 18.000USD for a new battery sounds cheap now, doesn't it? 🤔 Had to exchange the cam chains on my Audi twice in 180.000km. At Audi, this would have cost 9.000€ each time => 18.000€ FOR A SERVICE PART EXCHANGE, not for an engine replacement... 😡

BTW: there are several companies (at least here in Germany, but for sure also in USA), that do repair-services with a fraction of that price (typically between 5.000 and 6.000€). Mostly it is just one or two cells that are defect... In average, Tesla Batteries do last 250.000km or more. Now compare that to the service cost of the Audi. Clear winner for me is Tesla...

Regarding the charging situation: In the past 4 1/2 years since I have the car now, I have only ever waited one time (in Zurich) at a super charger station because no slot was free. 20 Minutes later, I could charge, no problem. How many times have I waited at Gas stations 20 Minutes or longer because gas was cheap and tons of people came to refuel? Several times... What was the longest time it took me for charging? I think it was around 45 Minutes. Time enough to go to the toilet, get you a coffee and stretch your legs. Almost to less time to have a proper lunch... Most of the time though, I drive off in less than 25 minutes. Supercharger in Germany are always close to Hotels, Restaurants or other places with toilettes, food/coffee supply etc.. I need a stop every 2 hours anyway, so why not charging your car while you are on the toilette? can you go to toilette while your car gets re-fueled? Bet you get bad comments when you return or someone fills their car with your hose, too...

Charging cost: I drove to Nürnberg and back in Winter, started with 100% Battery (Solar powered charging at home), stoped twice on the way (10 minutes and 20 minutes, as I wasn't sure about the charging situation in Nürnberg, so I told the car to calculate 40% rest charging available at destination). Same on the way back, though I said I want to reach home with at least 7% Charging, Charged at home to 80% over night for 30Cents/kwh = roughly 18€. I paid roughly 74€ on the super chargers, 92€ in total for 950km, which is less than 10 €/100km (in Summer, it would have been much less). Not sure how to beat that with a 16 year old truck. But superchargers in US might be more expensive and gas prices lower - I don't know. My Audi would have consumed roughly 110 Liters of gas with 1,60€/Liter at least => 176€, which is almost twice the cost. Not calculating the service, maintenance and other cost that were much higher...

chrisk said:
I got caught in a traffic jam, waiting for an EV to burn itself out on a two lane motorway. Once it was toasted, and removed, the lane it was in was closed because the tar had to be removed and replaced…..

I drive about 1,000klm a day, and this holiday season I’ve seen more broken down vehicles than ever before …. of all types of propulsion systems.
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the cars I see stranded are typically older cars and defenitely no EV's over here, as there are no big numbers of older EV's... Neighbour did 180.000km on the first, 200.000km on the second and is currently at 60.000km on the third EV, not one issue.

1.000km a day - Check your local used car sales. Over here we have a lot of 3-4 year old Teslas that have 300.000km or more covered in that time. Seems, long distances isn't the problem really... ;)

Steve G. said:
95% of Tesla options are software purchased off his satellite. Only hardware is the roof racks. Which fit like shit, and always cause the roof glass to crack when customer puts stuff on the roof racks.
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Tow-hinch is another hardware upgrade, as well as different wheels. Even the software upgrades are limited, as the Car comes 98% fully equiped. Almost everything the Tesla has included is optional on German cars. Something I liked very much on the Tesla.
 
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Laverdalothar said:
Steve, this is exactly what I said above: If you work on those things, you only see the problems that you have to fix. A bit like Piet who does not like the Zane bikes, because he saw the same faults over and over again and they are really shit to work on compared to the Breganzes, where you can reach everything easily. Once fixed, you do not see the bikes anymore so you don't have positive feedback, you only ever have to deal with the negative side of it...

To the replacement cost of a battery: have you checked what a BMW M3 Engine costs if you need a new one? Have you checked what a Porsche engine cost just to repair it? On a BMW, a new engine with exchange is about 20.000€ (and they blow up regularely, way before they reach the 150.000km mark...), on a Porsche, an overhaul can be as high as 30.000€ for a normal aspirated engine, for a Turbo it can be way beyond 50.000€. Somehow, 18.000USD for a new battery sounds cheap now, doesn't it? 🤔 Had to exchange the cam chains on my Audi twice in 180.000km. At Audi, this would have cost 9.000€ each time => 18.000€ FOR A SERVICE PART EXCHANGE, not for an engine replacement... 😡

BTW: there are several companies (at least here in Germany, but for sure also in USA), that do repair-services with a fraction of that price (typically between 5.000 and 6.000€). Mostly it is just one or two cells that are defect... In average, Tesla Batteries do last 250.000km or more. Now compare that to the service cost of the Audi. Clear winner for me is Tesla...

Regarding the charging situation: In the past 4 1/2 years since I have the car now, I have only ever waited one time (in Zurich) at a super charger station because no slot was free. 20 Minutes later, I could charge, no problem. How many times have I waited at Gas stations 20 Minutes or longer because gas was cheap and tons of people came to refuel? Several times... What was the longest time it took me for charging? I think it was around 45 Minutes. Time enough to go to the toilet, get you a coffee and stretch your legs. Almost to less time to have a proper lunch... Most of the time though, I drive off in less than 25 minutes. Supercharger in Germany are always close to Hotels, Restaurants or other places with toilettes, food/coffee supply etc.. I need a stop every 2 hours anyway, so why not charging your car while you are on the toilette? can you go to toilette while your car gets re-fueled? Bet you get bad comments when you return or someone fills their car with your hose, too...

Charging cost: I drove to Nürnberg and back in Winter, started with 100% Battery (Solar powered charging at home), stoped twice on the way (10 minutes and 20 minutes, as I wasn't sure about the charging situation in Nürnberg, so I told the car to calculate 40% rest charging available at destination). Same on the way back, though I said I want to reach home with at least 7% Charging, Charged at home to 80% over night for 30Cents/kwh = roughly 18€. I paid roughly 74€ on the super chargers, 92€ in total for 950km, which is less than 10 €/100km (in Summer, it would have been much less). Not sure how to beat that with a 16 year old truck. But superchargers in US might be more expensive and gas prices lower - I don't know. My Audi would have consumed roughly 110 Liters of gas with 1,60€/Liter at least => 176€, which is almost twice the cost. Not calculating the service, maintenance and other cost that were much higher...



the cars I see stranded are typically older cars and defenitely no EV's over here, as there are no big numbers of older EV's... Neighbour did 180.000km on the first, 200.000km on the second and is currently at 60.000km on the third EV, not one issue.

1.000km a day - Check your local used car sales. Over here we have a lot of 3-4 year old Teslas that have 300.000km or more covered in that time. Seems, long distances isn't the problem really... ;)


Tow-hinch is another hardware upgrade, as well as different wheels. Even the software upgrades are limited, as the Car comes 98% fully equiped. Almost everything the Tesla has included is optional on German cars. Something I liked very much on the Tesla.
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Thanks for updating me on Tesla hard options.

Engine rebuilds on combustion engines vary widely. I certainly notice you’ve picked particularly high “value lolol” cars like BMW, Audi, and Porsche engines, which in 2026 have extremely high reputations for minimal engine life, and absolutely outlandish repair costs. Why didn’t you just go right for Ferrari or even Bugatti for the win!!??? My old Ford truck is approaching 400,000 kms next month, I think I replaced a thermostat 9 yrs ago,,,cost me $11,,,,,oh and a brand new crate engine with 3 yr guarantee is $5600cdn, I guess 2500 Euro,,,, just to let you know, I picked the CHEAPEST Tesla battery replacement for comparison sake, not among the most expensive as your path of example went. But hey, I get it.

Another interesting notable information aspect of digging into a Tesla screen, the battery’s visibility, or age scale. We get to work on the odd Model S, nice looking car actually. The average battery viability on a 2013 Model S is currently around 25-30 % of its former self, kinda like a cell phone battery. No wonder they can be bought for a great deal around here!! 75km range, cool!!

Another tidbit,,, Tesla cars just sitting in the driveway doing nothing, just parked, burn 1-1.5% of battery charge per day. So we see many Teslas waiting g for parts for weeks, ,,,,and have to catalog each battery charge and charge up each one with a 300’ extension cords regularly.

Parking can be tricky in cold weather, as the doors cannot be opened easily if parked outside below -20C. But hey, at least it’s safe to bring them in, as Kia and Hyundai evs are banned from overnight parking inside because of their reputation to spontaneously “get very warm”!!!
 
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