Head Gaskets

Ha ha! The copper gasket you made for me is a wall decoration too Rob. I've been waiting for permission from the Laverda gurus to use the it. It may be hanging on the wall for a while yet.

Cam
 
There coming out of the woodwork now.Don't know Cam,I will ping him and ask I am thinking with the one from Red and the 2 coming from Germany from Piet I expect he has enough.Just another example of the forum doing its good work for the cause.The best bit is another useful tip is out there improving the way the bikes are built and perform.I wounder why there was a change in the gaskets in the first place and weather there is any advantage in either type not including that step.But I mainly wonder what is in mine and what the sleeve barrel were like.
 
Vince said:
I wounder why there was a change in the gaskets in the first place and weather there is any advantage in either type not including that step.But I mainly wonder what is in mine and what the sleeve barrel were like.
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so called progress Vince, I doubt the original gasket manufacturer is making the gaskets anymore so will be a case of whoever is doing them stocking a limited range of gasket material to cover a wide range of applications, Laverda useage being so low it most likely got lumped in with the V8 Saab Dream Box

I doubt there is more than one company making the full gasket sets worldwide, Piet will have a better idea, I buy majority of my stock through Wolfgang so am not 100% certain

life moves on and we have what we have




 
sfcpiet said:
This change in construction went un-noticed at OCT, I spent a good part of last summer replacing head gaskets in rebuilt motors that showed heavy oil consumption after less than 500km.  We now have a limited stock of the copper type, but the suppliers have told us they will be the last...

HTH,
piet
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Hi Piet, wonder which one I need for my engine?  :D
JL
 
redax5 said:
so called progress Vince, I doubt the original gasket manufacturer is making the gaskets anymore so will be a case of whoever is doing them stocking a limited range of gasket material to cover a wide range of applications, Laverda useage being so low it most likely got lumped in with the V8 Saab Dream Box

I doubt there is more than one company making the full gasket sets worldwide, Piet will have a better idea, I buy majority of my stock through Wolfgang so am not 100% certain
Click to expand...

It is actually the original maker for Laverda!

Up to the last shipment, the gaskets were all to original dimensions, only the last shipment went pear-shaped.  Quite OK if the liners are flush, only recessed liners give problems.  After having a shit-load of problems with a freshly built engine, Dirk got on to the manufacturer to make them to the original specs.  Seems the manufacturing process is more complicated with the non-crushed flame ring.

I stripped the fore-mentioned engine 5 times without finding the cause.  Only after a customer compained his engine was smoking heavily after only 1600km did we find the cause.  Where I would have ridden the bike 50km max before pulling it down again and not finding anything, the 1600km left slight carbon markings on the head surface, it was only then we realised where the oil was going!

BTW, Wolfgang uses the very same source...

piet
 
MVma said:
Hi Piet, wonder which one I need for my engine?  :D
JL
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Vince, a special thank you for thinking of posting on the Forum and doing a lot of ringing around your contacts to find a solution.
Thank you to everyone who went the extra mile to help us out.
Thanks Piet, Red and Cam for your prompt responses.

The worms are out of the can now.
It would be simple to machine the barrels on The DAM Lav but on the 981cc the spigot is such an inherent part of the combustion chamber hence we are stuck with having to find gaskets to suit at short notice. No problem to machine the barrels on 1116cc and larger (changes the cam timing a smidge) but what to do about head gaskets for the 1000s?

Greg
 
Fixing one under warranty now....  :( And just bought a batch of suspect head gaskets  :( :(

Can machine the tops of the liners to accept a wire compression ring without too much bother but I would rather just have a gasket that was correct. Has this been sorted now with C do you know Piet?


    Keith
 
mauricejota7604 said:
So can these head gaskets be used successfully if you retension a few times strainght after each heat cycle?
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I'd rather not on a standard factory fit barrel. See Piets explanation earlier; a very concise, honest appraisal.
 
mauricejota7604 said:
So can these head gaskets be used successfully if you retension a few times strainght after each heat cycle?
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I wouldn't think so Maurice. If the flame ring on the new type is too thin to use with a recessed liner, then no amount of re-tensioning the head (within reason) is going to make it seal.

I reckon the only alternative if the copper type is no longer available is to deck the top surface of the barrels so the top of the cylinder liner sits flush to the alloy block. Bit of a pain in the arse, and will marginally increase compression ratio unless a thicker base gasket is used.

I assume the recessed barrel was made that way in the first place to accommodate the thick copper ring. Maybe the thick ring gaskets were the only type avilable 30 years ago, so that's how they did it.


Edit: I'm a bit slow. Greg answered the question while I was typing.
 
I think I am in the same boat.We were going to use Clem's full copper headgassket jobbie but it needed a flush surface which mine didn't have so we went with what was around.And I think that was a Wolfgang supplied composite with likely steel flame rings,MAYBE .My bike has on occasion blown some blue smoke after a hard run,not a lot but some.And on The Snowy Run it used 1/2 a litre of oil per 1000ks.That was at the time I though a tiny weep from the flywheel or countershalf.I have my doubts now.Never a dull Laverda world.
 
The 1200 barrell can be machined flat, it is done on a surface grinder with lots of coolant and a wheel that can cope with the alloy and steel, plenty of people are using the solid all copper gaskets, TOG has one, so does Duffs anni, and he is clocking big miles there are others that I bump into now and then  (only the other day a gent came up to me at the Ace cafe and pointed to a very "well used" Jota and said that he was pleased as punch with his solid copper gasket), I dont even know who that was, but I do accept that plenty have fitted them and not been pleased with the results, I cant say why that is. I do have stocks but I am reluctant to sell them,
but if someone wanted one, then they should ask me, they might be well pleased.
CLEM
 
mauricejota7604 said:
So can these head gaskets be used successfully if you retension a few times strainght after each heat cycle?
Click to expand...

so it seems the general consensus here is that one should not use these new head gaskets which just happen to be the only ones that are available now
sweet, Keith, Piet and myself can now retire, we don't have to do any more engines because the gaskets are suspect, fantastic
but what do I do with the 27 engines I have booked in at the moment, send them back ?

we need to be a bit realistic here, these gaskets are what we have so we have to make them work
I had issues with some converted 1200 engines 18 months ago where I would diligently machine the 0.1mm recess into the liner after boring the barrels to use larger sleeves, spoke with my main engine machinist who told me to go flush which is what I did and never had an issue after that on the big bore engines

have not had a 1000 engine play up on me yet though there is always time, plenty of new ones running around but no owners have contacted me yet and said their engine is a dud
one thing we do though is we always do a service on a new engine before shipping it off which means we run the engine in our test bench, tune it, cycle it through a run in procedure to seat the rings, check valve shims, retorque the head, run it again then pack and send to the owner
it may be that the very early re-torque of the head is helping us get away with using these head gaskets, time will tell

2 years ago I contacted Cometec and asked them for a quote on getting MLS head gaskets made, they came back and told me that it would cost me $3,500 for the design and tooling required for them to gear up to do Laverda head gaskets, then for a run of 100 head gaskets cost would be $115 each and that after I spent all that money they would not give me exclusive rights to the MLS head gaskets as in anybody could then contact them direct and buy one from them for the same price as I could so there was no way for me to recoup the $3500 set up fee
arseholes, told them to shove their gaskets

 
redax5 said:
it may be that the very early re-torque of the head is helping us get away with using these head gaskets, time will tell

2 years ago I contacted Cometec and asked them for a quote on getting MLS head gaskets made, they came back and told me that it would cost me $3,500 for the design and tooling required for them to gear up to do Laverda head gaskets, then for a run of 100 head gaskets cost would be $115 each and that after I spent all that money they would not give me exclusive rights to the MLS head gaskets as in anybody could then contact them direct and buy one from them for the same price as I could so there was no way for me to recoup the $3500 set up fee
arseholes, told them to shove their gaskets
Click to expand...

Not really Red.

My procedure is quite similar, after installing, the engine is tuned and run a bit, cool down for re-torquing, then out for a road test and another re-torque after that.  May take a little time for the oil to find a path past/through the o-rings and into the chamber.

Will be aiming for flush-fitting liners from now on, have fitted several of the "new" type gaskets to flush barrels without issues.

OCT got a quote from a german gasket manufacturer last summer, almost identical "offer", Dirk told 'em much the same. :D

piet
 
sfcpiet said:
Not really Red.

My procedure is quite similar, after installing, the engine is tuned and run a bit, cool down for re-torquing, then out for a road test and another re-torque after that.  May take a little time for the oil to find a path past/through the o-rings and into the chamber.

Will be aiming for flush-fitting liners from now on, have fitted several of the "new" type gaskets to flush barrels without issues.

OCT got a quote from a german gasket manufacturer last summer, almost identical "offer", Dirk told 'em much the same. :D

piet
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Basically what I do too Piet, pain in the ass this. Not a big deal to skim a 80mm barrel but a bit of a bore slipping the 75mm liners out and adjusting the heights on the 1000's. I do also see a lot of heads that have already been skimmed, can't just keep removing metal. Will look at fitting a wire compression ring for the next couple but we are going to have to get some gaskets made. Phil used to have head gaskets made here in the UK, he still may have contacts.... nice little earner coming up PT ;)


  Keith
 
has anyone spoke to Richard Slater ??  the bloke knows a lot of stuff about stuff.

the only cu ring gasket i still 'av, came from Slater's.  be it some time ago. 
& it don't look the same appearance as the other head gaskets from elsewhere.  different supplier?

just a thought.  now time to fire Clyde up to the teahouse.  toot-toot.
 
redax5 said:
we need to be a bit realistic here, these gaskets are what we have so we have to make them work
Click to expand...

I agree in part.

I think we tell our customers with 1200s that it is in their best interest, and indeed now necessary, to have the barrel machined, just like the head might need doing as well. Simple.

But machining off the spigot of the 1000s, where the barrel is part of the combustion chamber, doesn't sit very well with me. Not just the lowering of compression but the weird cross-sectional shape of the chamber with the spigot gone. Of course the sleeves can be dropped out, machine the barrel face, put the sleeves back in and machine them in situ. I'd do it with my bike, but hard to charge customers for that time.
And... not every customer has the financial freedom to have a 1200 re-sleeve (ie. complete motor rebuild) when they just need a valve grind done.

PS. Just trivia... The DAM racer being 981cc is historical from '80s when there was a 1000cc limit on Superbike, Formula European and Bears Racing. 


 
laverdakeith said:
Will look at fitting a wire compression ring for the next couple but we are going to have to get some gaskets made.
Click to expand...

Would this compression ring sit on TOP of the bad gasket's fire-ring, or would you remove that ring from the gasket and replace it with a fatter copper ring?

I've just received my freshly re-bored 1000 barrel, so the timing is poor, but at least I've been warned.

To sum up, it seems that 1000 owners are faced with the following options:

1.  fit one of these "bad" gaskets, do multiple early head re-torque operations and HOPE for the best, or?
2.  send my barrel back for more machine work, essentially to have the spigots removed (which makes for a weird combustion chamber shape), or...
3.  add some kind of compression ring to the "bad" gasket - as per Keith's idea, or...
4.  wait until an original-style copper-ring gasket is available.
 
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