Laverda spokes

Ok... so looking very carefully, there are differences between external and internals spokes, is about the bending, the inner ones have less bending as the external. However all aftermarkets spokes that I have seen don't make that difference. May be bucannan or central-wheels do. I am waiting for answer.

Miguel

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Some good suggestions to investigate, but I opted for the easy route and ordered from Wolfgang who knows this sort of detail! 

Central Wheel here in the UK get mixed reviews, and I haven't tried them
 

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The ones that snapped on one I did were from Wolfgang.
Looking at them after the event they were much lighter gauge than the originals.
This was a few years ago now.
Maybe now he has taken note.
 
I've added angle to bends more than once to create an outside spoke from an inner - drilled a hole in a piece of steel flat just big enough to allow the spoke through at the bend and ... bend it some more. The original ones you show actually have extra width at the bend to accommodate the hub flanges, Miguel. I really don't think you'll have issues if you order the same size for the fronts inner and outer. Maybe hazard a close  guess with the rears.

Maybe the place s Gerald and Marnix recommend are good bets - and no OS freight.
 
Hi Miguel
              If you have no experience at wheelbuilding then I would humbly suggest that rebuilding your Laverda wheels is not a good place to start. The tension of the spokes to achieve a round wheel with the correct offset is a skill earned over many years and totally different from replacing the odd spoke. For peace of mind I would parcel them up and send them to Central Wheel, get the rims polished, hubs repainted and enquire about going up a gauge on spoke diameter. Why do I recommend them? Well, I used to work there.

Kind Regards  Bob
 
BobSol said:
Hi Miguel
              If you have no experience at wheelbuilding then I would humbly suggest that rebuilding your Laverda wheels is not a good place to start. The tension of the spokes to achieve a round wheel with the correct offset is a skill earned over many years and totally different from replacing the odd spoke. For peace of mind I would parcel them up and send them to Central Wheel, get the rims polished, hubs repainted and enquire about going up a gauge on spoke diameter. Why do I recommend them? Well, I used to work there.

Kind Regards  Bob
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Hi Bob!

Thank you very much for the advices. Please do not missunderstand me, I would never underestimate the job of a real professional. I will never rebuild an engine as Piet or Red will do (or any other at their level), I will never chrome or plate as a pro, will never polish so good as a polisher, and of course I will never do a wheel as good as your former company.

However, i enjoy to spend time and resources, sometimes (actually mostly) senseless, learning those things, specially I like the fact of seeing at the end what I have achieved, I will probably never win a concourse like that, but I am not seeking for that.

So with the help of all of you (something I will never be able to thank enough) And a bit of my obsesive selflearning, I achieve acceptable results.

I also consider the option that when I reach a dead end, I can always put everything in a box and send it to the pros🤣🤷🏼‍♂️

So with all that said, now that I know that you must be one with the most knowledge of lacing wheels in this forum... what offset are you talking about??🤣 do you mean that the hub is not centered with the rim? That is very tipical for bicycle rear hubs, but when I looked to my rear hub I had the impression that it had no offset.

Well sorry for the long text and thank you as always for all your help.

P.S. In the meantime central wheels have answered, in another post I will paste all the information the sent, found it very interesting.

Miguel
 
Hi Miguel
              No worries, happy to help. Rims are manufactured by rolling a pre-formed section and welding the join. The area around the join will typically have a "memory" of the process which is corrected and brought into truth by spoke tension. The quality of the rim will ultimately determine how round the wheelbuilder can get the finished wheel. Concentricity with the wheel spindle is very important i.e. up and down run-out. Offset is the position of the rim relative to the hub i.e. side to side. You would think all wheels would be designed to have the rim centrally built but no they are all different. Some are, some ain't. Tyre clearance and chain run will often offset the rim. Spoke pattern varies a lot too, with the aim to distribute evenly axial and torsional loads i.e. cornering and braking. So as long as you get them round, running true and in the right place side to side you're good to go. The clever bit is to achieve all of the above with the correct tension on the spokes.
Kind Regards  Bob
 
Grant said:
The ones that snapped on one I did were from Wolfgang.
Looking at them after the event they were much lighter gauge than the originals.
This was a few years ago now.
Maybe now he has taken note.
Click to expand...

I have a set from Wolfgang that are also a bit suspect ..... I got them about 10 years ago and never used them. The bell-ends (what else do you call them? .... hehehe) ...... are longer and I didn't feel comfortable using them. I'm going to take them back in November. I will try an alternative source but not sure which one yet. Wish I had kept the originals and re-plated.

Jim
 
Hi, i use a guy in Staffordshire who used to work for Stoke speedway and he makes his own spokes.
I have had four sets over the years and have never had one break.
His name is sids Wheels UK mobile number 07855566713.
He has the patterns for the wheels.
Regards Andy 😁
 
helicopterjim said:
I have a set from Wolfgang that are also a bit suspect ..... I got them about 10 years ago and never used them. The bell-ends (what else do you call them? .... hehehe) ...... are longer and I didn't feel comfortable using them. I'm going to take them back in November. I will try an alternative source but not sure which one yet. Wish I had kept the originals and re-plated.

Jim
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Well, Central-wheel.co.uk has replied very quickly, we have agreed that I will send him 4 spokes, 2 front outer/inner, and 2 rear outer/inner, and they will take all necessary specs, that I will be happy to share when I have them, I hope they keep them for future orders.

Miguel
 
BobSol said:
Hi Miguel
              No worries, happy to help. Rims are manufactured by rolling a pre-formed section and welding the join. The area around the join will typically have a "memory" of the process which is corrected and brought into truth by spoke tension. The quality of the rim will ultimately determine how round the wheelbuilder can get the finished wheel. Concentricity with the wheel spindle is very important i.e. up and down run-out. Offset is the position of the rim relative to the hub i.e. side to side. You would think all wheels would be designed to have the rim centrally built but no they are all different. Some are, some ain't. Tyre clearance and chain run will often offset the rim. Spoke pattern varies a lot too, with the aim to distribute evenly axial and torsional loads i.e. cornering and braking. So as long as you get them round, running true and in the right place side to side you're good to go. The clever bit is to achieve all of the above with the correct tension on the spokes.
Kind Regards  Bob
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Hi Bob,

just to keep the conversation alive...  :D

yes you are right, I know the importance of all of this values. Of course concentricity is no discussion. Then the balance with all spoke forces, minimizing the difference between them but also compensating for "flatness" in vertical axis. All of that is like "obviously important".
Regarding offset, from my cycling experience; it is of a great importance, very rarely the hub is centered with the rim, because the wheel has no spacers and in one side, there is a big sprocket cassette, they even have different lacing patterns in each side, thus different spoke lengths in one wheel.
Extrapolating to my Laverda, I believe the rear wheel hub has no offset with the rim, nor the front one. Front must be symmetrical. Rear, has a drum in one side, sprocket in the other side, there you could think that maybe there could be some offset, but I have discarded that option, because the axis is using spacers to center the wheel regardless of the hub to rim position, so logically thinking, the hub and the rim has to be aligned, so the center of the rim has to be in the middle of both bearings which are at equal distance from left and right of the hub spoke supporting flange.

Then the lacing patterns, I have made 100 photos and some videos.

Spoke tension, with a torque wrench that I have and an specific value....

WHAT COULD GO WRONG! (We will discover that in the next weeks episodes... :LOL:)

Now seriously Bob, if there is anything else I am missing, please do not hesitate to tell me! Regarding polishing... well, it has become my favourite thing to do in my workshop, I bought a professional machine, visited a polishing workshop a few days, and I simply love it, I can spend hours polishing with my mind in blank, is like spa for women.

Miguel.
 
Haggis said:
Miguel - I live close to Central wheel components - let me know if you need hands-on help. Paul
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Hey Paul!

Well actually, I have to send them 4 spokes so they can measure the specs, they should also evaluate depending on original material, type of nipple, bend angle... what would be the best material option. Shipping parcels right now is crazy, lot of delays... So, if you would have some spare spokes that you could bring them, I would save the shipping with its 20? costs plus 2 weeks! If you have some of those spokes as spares... feel free to pm me and we can talk it! Otherwise don't worry, preparing parcels is also part of the fun  :LOL:
Miguel
 
Sids wheels is 20 miles from Central wheels and he has the pattern for the the spokes, and he's half the price and twice as good. 🤔
Regards Andy
 
Paul Marx said:
Why don't you just paint or nickel or zinc plate the spokes you have?

Paul
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Hey Paul,
Sorry I didn?t answer your message, just saw it now. Well, that is what I am going to do (myself) including nipples, but really just for fun, if it works out good, then great.
Problem is that I didn?t find nipples for those threads, and some of mines are really bad, and a few spokes are bended, I will put them straight... but I thought that all together, was a good reason to put a new set.
Miguel
 
laverdas said:
Sids wheels is 20 miles from Central wheels and he has the pattern for the the spokes, and he's half the price and twice as good. 🤔
Regards Andy
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Hi Andy,

Sure, why not! I will knock all the doors and then see what works best.
What material did he use for your spoke sets? SS? Steel?
Do you have another mean to contact him? Like email? Or does he has whatsapp? I avoid calling, you english guys can?t speak normal english as the rest of the world does :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Miguel
 
I know you have tons of advice already but I had some broken spokes on my Borrani's and decided to send them to Buchanan's (another recommended further above in this thread).  http://www.buchananspokes.com in Southern Calif.  I figured - some things worth outsourcing and since they spin at relatively earnest RPMs with me on them - why not. 

I get them back in a few days (shipping back to me today) and will give an update but so far over the phone they have been super helpful. They are very personable and you call and talk to the same nice folks and they have a small shop feel. I am waiting for their arrival like Christmas in October. They will have trued the rims and installed new tires. So when I get the delivery - should be at the fun stage of just installing freshly spoked and trued and balanced Borrani rims with fresh tubes and tires.  But I'm sure there is satisfaction in doing this part yourself.  They will also send you spokes they make to specification. They are official Borrani reps. They know their spokes.
 
Hi Miguel
              What can go wrong you ask. Well, I've seen spoke nipples pulled through the rim and hubs cracked from ham fisted over tension and it's usually not the spoke being tightened that causes the damage. You have to understand that every time you tighten or loosen a nipple it has an effect elsewhere. So, you'll need a flat surface bigger than the wheel, then put the hub in the middle and set the rim outside on wooden blocks which puts it in the correct offset. You did take a measurement from a disc or sprocket face to the edge of the rim before you took your wheels apart, didn't you? Anyway it's important at this stage to establish which direction the rim should sit. Your photos and rubbing scars on the hub should help. Make sure you use the correct spoke length before you start the lacing pattern. Don't fit any nipples until you are convinced the pattern is correct and the spokes look right in the dimples on the rim. The spokes should sit in a dead straight line from exiting the hub to the rim. Once you have all the spokes in the rim in the right place fit the nipples but very loosely at this stage. Pick the wheel up and give it a good shake to settle the spokes. Now tighten the nipples a couple of turns at a time with a screwdriver and don't get greedy at this stage it just makes for more work later. Eventually you'll get to the point when you can spin the wheel vertically. Work on getting the offset right first by loosening spokes on one side and tightening the other until it's where you need it. Then work on the up and down runout. Patience is the key, don't try to get too much movement in one go. Half a turn at a time is the way forward. Enjoy.
 
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