No spark diagnostics
- Thread starter cbertozz
- Start date
breganzane
Hero member
- Location
- NSW Australia
While I admire and encourage your hands-on spirit, my strong advice to you would be to disconnect the battery and leave it alone till the auto electrician can come have a look. Something (probably simple) is wrong, but if things are getting hot it can be major. Bikes regularly burn to the ground (and their garages/houses with them) due to electrical faults. This is probably not the situation to be learning about electrics, especially given the nature of your heavily customised electrical system.
Not trying to deride you, but my impression is you have sought, received and acted on information from far too many sources. You have also done things you should not have, like reprogramming the Ignitech. If it was working before, then the map in the Ignitech was certainly not the reason it suddenly stopped. Now it's an unknown.
I am very comfortable around electrics but in the same situation I would not leave the battery connected or even in the bike unattended until the problem were isolated. If it came into my shed with the symptoms it has I'd pull out all the non-standard electrics and start from there.
HTH
SteveB
Not trying to deride you, but my impression is you have sought, received and acted on information from far too many sources. You have also done things you should not have, like reprogramming the Ignitech. If it was working before, then the map in the Ignitech was certainly not the reason it suddenly stopped. Now it's an unknown.
I am very comfortable around electrics but in the same situation I would not leave the battery connected or even in the bike unattended until the problem were isolated. If it came into my shed with the symptoms it has I'd pull out all the non-standard electrics and start from there.
HTH
SteveB
blab
Hero member
- Location
- Adelaide South Australia
Ha, check reply #3.Grant said:
G
Grant
Guest
I was only re-emphasising the point.
At least with computers you only have to punch the information in once.
At least with computers you only have to punch the information in once.
blab
Hero member
- Location
- Adelaide South Australia
Except in Spain 
treoleileagh
Full member
- Location
- Australia
The issue is almost certainly going to be something usual. However difficulty to diagnose the problem is largely because your bike's wiring has been modified and the plan is unknown. Before your auto electrician leaves, make sure he gives you a wiring diagram for your modified system. That will save you angst, time and cost in the future. Even better, consider the cost of reverting the bike to the original design. To my mind that would be the wisest plan. From there, reinstall the Ignitech according to the most usual design. Make everything as common as possible.
Goodluck
Goodluck
D
Davo
Guest
cbertozz said:
Except you don't have original pickups :
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
There should be several cables going under the starter motor, some are from the pickups (or what ever you have there), some are from the Alternator. Any shorting should be resolved, any bad connection, too.
To be honest, the whole crow-nest of cables look horrible to me, I would try to throw at least 50% out of the bike... Keep in mind, every single connection is a potential point of failure. The more connections, the more .... you get it, right?
You were on the point with the 21 pin connector of the Ignitech. Have you investigated further at that point? I know of several DMC2 (which has a large single multi-pin-connector, too) that failed tue to a broken off cable at one of the pins or a pin that was not seated correctly into the connector... gently pull each single cable and see if one brakes off...
To be honest, the whole crow-nest of cables look horrible to me, I would try to throw at least 50% out of the bike... Keep in mind, every single connection is a potential point of failure. The more connections, the more .... you get it, right?
You were on the point with the 21 pin connector of the Ignitech. Have you investigated further at that point? I know of several DMC2 (which has a large single multi-pin-connector, too) that failed tue to a broken off cable at one of the pins or a pin that was not seated correctly into the connector... gently pull each single cable and see if one brakes off...
Laverdalothar said:There should be several cables going under the starter motor, some are from the pickups (or what ever you have there), some are from the Alternator. Any shorting should be resolved, any bad connection, too.
To be honest, the whole crow-nest of cables look horrible to me, I would try to throw at least 50% out of the bike... Keep in mind, every single connection is a potential point of failure. The more connections, the more .... you get it, right?
You were on the point with the 21 pin connector of the Ignitech. Have you investigated further at that point? I know of several DMC2 (which has a large single multi-pin-connector, too) that failed tue to a broken off cable at one of the pins or a pin that was not seated correctly into the connector... gently pull each single cable and see if one brakes off...
I took the 20 pin to an Auto electrician who tested it and checked it for continuity and couldn't really see how it was loose. He adjusted the p13 connector to try and make it more solid. It still cuts in and out when you move the wire in a particular direction, and when I swap to Bears wiring it doesn't, so isn't the box (male.socket).
The reason your post attracted me was that it almost exactly describes the symptoms I have experienced. As it happens the wires to the starter/alternator are the only ones I haven't really tested - and the Ohm test I haven't done anywhere.
The fact that the single coil heats up, the battery drains quick when the bike is on, the bike runs on single or two cyclinders and the fact that everything happens intermittently suggests that something is touching something it shouldn't.
CLEMTOG
Hero member
tear off the whole wiring caboodle, fit a new loom , add in the extra wiring that you need for the ignition, and use the correct colour wiring for that, keep the original wiring diagram and the ignition wiring diagram handy and a duplicated set not so handy. Unless you are very electrically minded don't install anything extra such as headlight relays, horn relays, non factory switches of any kind and other bits and bobs etc
start engine and ride bike!
Although I do have to admit that improvements are possible, but only if taking off the wiring that you have does not scare you, are you scared? are you? if so get help, which is available wherever you are.
CLEM
start engine and ride bike!
Although I do have to admit that improvements are possible, but only if taking off the wiring that you have does not scare you, are you scared? are you? if so get help, which is available wherever you are.
CLEM
Gravelroad
Hero member
- Location
- Central Europe
Carlo, I rewired my 3C's electrics on my own. I'm only a mechanical engineer and no electrician, so I followed mainly the original wiring and colour scheme, just improved it for better reliabilty and output, applying common sense and following some general rules. I add some details on it in the following, there might be some valuable information added for the renewal of your electrics, which seems unavoidable to me, thinking about the possible weight loss alone!
Picture shows how it looks under the seat of my 3C.
Left side in the pic you see my mains relay, it is the only relay (apart from the starter relay) to be sensefully placed at this location, anything else will add only several meters of unnecessary wiring, period. One might place the indicator relay around here, but these days I prefer to use an electronic indicator relay (motogadget m-flash), size of a peanut, residing in the headlight shell.
I used a HD automotive relay for the mains relay, Bosch 0986332040.
This relay is feeded via the white 25Amp fuse from the battery, the orange 5Amp fuse next to it is feeding the ignition key switch, which now sees only tiny currents (mains relay coil, parking lights). Charge current of the R/R is feeded via the yellow wire.
The mains relay is feeding the block of 4 fuses which is sitting behind the L/H side cover.
These fuses are -lights -ignition/starter relay -indicators/idiot lights -brake lights/horn
Have all ground wiring running in copper to a single point (except starter motor ground, which is going directly to the batt), much like you have it on your bike, too (not all is bad there).
On top of that, I followed 2 general rules - Avoiding connectors where ever I could, and sticking to a congruent colour scheme for the wires. That's it, mainly.
All this makes the system clean and tidy. Easy to diagnose in case of malfunction, which had never happened during last 4 yrs of use, naturally.
You can download the updated wiring diagram matching for series 1 triples here: http://home.arcor.de/gs3/pics/Lav/Wiring1000_3C_BTZ.jpg
There will be slight differences to your bike (ignition box, alternator, R/R), the rest will fit.
One might ask what's about relay for headlight and even horns, which are missing in the diagram?
I added them at a later stage (big improvement of headlight output BTW), used these little buggers for the job:
Fujitsu 51ND12-W1. They are specified for automotive use, watertight, shockproof, have a 25Amp rating, and come in around 5$ each. They are such small package, that they can be easily placed inside the headlight shell, thus allowing to have them plugged straight into the existing wiring.
Glued 2 of them together, soldered the wires on, covered the entire package with heat wrap. Took only 5 mins to plug it into the existing connections, finally fixed it by some adhesive tape to the headlight bulb connector.
Works perfectly well since years now. Easy job. In case anyone is interested, I'll make up a pictured step by step instruction for this fix.
With electrics, KISS has always worked well for me.
Regards,
Stefan
Picture shows how it looks under the seat of my 3C.
Left side in the pic you see my mains relay, it is the only relay (apart from the starter relay) to be sensefully placed at this location, anything else will add only several meters of unnecessary wiring, period. One might place the indicator relay around here, but these days I prefer to use an electronic indicator relay (motogadget m-flash), size of a peanut, residing in the headlight shell.
I used a HD automotive relay for the mains relay, Bosch 0986332040.
This relay is feeded via the white 25Amp fuse from the battery, the orange 5Amp fuse next to it is feeding the ignition key switch, which now sees only tiny currents (mains relay coil, parking lights). Charge current of the R/R is feeded via the yellow wire.
The mains relay is feeding the block of 4 fuses which is sitting behind the L/H side cover.
These fuses are -lights -ignition/starter relay -indicators/idiot lights -brake lights/horn
Have all ground wiring running in copper to a single point (except starter motor ground, which is going directly to the batt), much like you have it on your bike, too (not all is bad there).
On top of that, I followed 2 general rules - Avoiding connectors where ever I could, and sticking to a congruent colour scheme for the wires. That's it, mainly.
All this makes the system clean and tidy. Easy to diagnose in case of malfunction, which had never happened during last 4 yrs of use, naturally.
You can download the updated wiring diagram matching for series 1 triples here: http://home.arcor.de/gs3/pics/Lav/Wiring1000_3C_BTZ.jpg
There will be slight differences to your bike (ignition box, alternator, R/R), the rest will fit.
One might ask what's about relay for headlight and even horns, which are missing in the diagram?
I added them at a later stage (big improvement of headlight output BTW), used these little buggers for the job:
Fujitsu 51ND12-W1. They are specified for automotive use, watertight, shockproof, have a 25Amp rating, and come in around 5$ each. They are such small package, that they can be easily placed inside the headlight shell, thus allowing to have them plugged straight into the existing wiring.
Glued 2 of them together, soldered the wires on, covered the entire package with heat wrap. Took only 5 mins to plug it into the existing connections, finally fixed it by some adhesive tape to the headlight bulb connector.
Works perfectly well since years now. Easy job. In case anyone is interested, I'll make up a pictured step by step instruction for this fix.
With electrics, KISS has always worked well for me.
Regards,
Stefan
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
Reposting Cam's comment which is the best explanation for what you are experiencing. This could be readily checked by removing the existing green and yellow (neutral or switched) wires at the coils. That should stop your overheating. If it does, then disconnect the other ends from the Ignitech (pins 1 & 10) & run new wires in their place.
After you fix the overheating issue, then you should return to the poor connection to pin 13 (+12v) and fix that - otherwise intermittent supply will forever haunt you.
I would also fully endorse Steve B's wise comment re fire risk. Disconnect battery -ve when you're not working on the bike.
Clem not scared perse, the last week has helped me get over that, but I know for example I am crap at crimping, im struggling to get the rotor off, and I've got limited access to good components. It would be great if I could just buy a loom and just plug it in
I've been working halftime this week as my clients were mostly still on leave but next week work starts with avengance so will be back to being that time poor dude that pays people to sort it out. Which is what's going to happen on Monday.
I've learnt a heap from the member here and from getting hands-on with the bike so it hasn't been wasted.
Oh..and the battery is disconnected....
I've been working halftime this week as my clients were mostly still on leave but next week work starts with avengance so will be back to being that time poor dude that pays people to sort it out. Which is what's going to happen on Monday.
I've learnt a heap from the member here and from getting hands-on with the bike so it hasn't been wasted.
Oh..and the battery is disconnected....
Gravelroad said:Carlo, I rewired my 3C's electrics on my own. I'm only a mechanical engineer and no electrician, so I followed mainly the original wiring and colour scheme, just improved it for better reliabilty and output, applying common sense and following some general rules. I add some details on it in the following, there might be some valuable information added for the renewal of your electrics, which seems unavoidable to me, thinking about the possible weight loss alone!
Picture shows how it looks under the seat of my 3C.
Left side in the pic you see my mains relay, it is the only relay (apart from the starter relay) to be sensefully placed at this location, anything else will add only several meters of unnecessary wiring, period. One might place the indicator relay around here, but these days I prefer to use an electronic indicator relay (motogadget m-flash), size of a peanut, residing in the headlight shell.
I used a HD automotive relay for the mains relay, Bosch 0986332040.
This relay is feeded via the white 25Amp fuse from the battery, the orange 5Amp fuse next to it is feeding the ignition key switch, which now sees only tiny currents (mains relay coil, parking lights). Charge current of the R/R is feeded via the yellow wire.
The mains relay is feeding the block of 4 fuses which is sitting behind the L/H side cover.
These fuses are -lights -ignition/starter relay -indicators/idiot lights -brake lights/horn
Have all ground wiring running in copper to a single point (except starter motor ground, which is going directly to the batt), much like you have it on your bike, too (not all is bad there).
On top of that, I followed 2 general rules - Avoiding connectors where ever I could, and sticking to a congruent colour scheme for the wires. That's it, mainly.
All this makes the system clean and tidy. Easy to diagnose in case of malfunction, which had never happened during last 4 yrs of use, naturally.
You can download the updated wiring diagram matching for series 1 triples here: http://home.arcor.de/gs3/pics/Lav/Wiring1000_3C_BTZ.jpg
There will be slight differences to your bike (ignition box, alternator, R/R), the rest will fit.
One might ask what's about relay for headlight and even horns, which are missing in the diagram?
I added them at a later stage (big improvement of headlight output BTW), used these little buggers for the job:
Fujitsu 51ND12-W1. They are specified for automotive use, watertight, shockproof, have a 25Amp rating, and come in around 5$ each. They are such small package, that they can be easily placed inside the headlight shell, thus allowing to have them plugged straight into the existing wiring.
Glued 2 of them together, soldered the wires on, covered the entire package with heat wrap. Took only 5 mins to plug it into the existing connections, finally fixed it by some adhesive tape to the headlight bulb connector.
Works perfectly well since years now. Easy job. In case anyone is interested, I'll make up a pictured step by step instruction for this fix.
With electrics, KISS has always worked well for me.
Regards,
Stefan
Super tidy job Stefan. I'll show my electrician that!
Actually I'm going to try a couple of things this afternoon based on that wiring diagram. Thanks again for that, very clearm
Laverda SF
Hero member
Wish I was was young enough with enough cuts to handle a KTM V-Twin 850 Enduro!
Appears to be Canadian - Whether it's a piece of junk - Apprilla or what - Who knows?
Appears to be Canadian - Whether it's a piece of junk - Apprilla or what - Who knows?