Cosi
Hero member
- Location
- Kingscliff
Yeah well hello 160 plus hopefully
The new 4 valve cylinder head for Laverda triples is now available
- Thread starter MVma
- Start date
- Status
Looks like very nice work, (Lots of it) 
The mention of it's use in endurance racing, what class would it be allowed in? certainly nothing that I have seen in the classic regs would allow that sort of thing. CRMC regs for example strictly prohibit the change of basic layout etc while still being very open for general mods.
Looks great though, would be very interesting to see the power figures against a similar spec/tuned 6 valve engine.
What people do not usually realize is that power is not all about needing ultimate flow, Having big flow does not just mean that the top end is better (where the extra flow is needed of course) but it also means that the cam does not have to be so wild with its timing, therefore often meaning better low and mid range also due to a less peaky engine (if the flow and port shapes etc are right)
A good 4 valve head should be way better than a 2 valver on most of the rev range if everything else is optimized in relationship.
Interesting project.
Jules
The mention of it's use in endurance racing, what class would it be allowed in? certainly nothing that I have seen in the classic regs would allow that sort of thing. CRMC regs for example strictly prohibit the change of basic layout etc while still being very open for general mods.
Looks great though, would be very interesting to see the power figures against a similar spec/tuned 6 valve engine.
What people do not usually realize is that power is not all about needing ultimate flow, Having big flow does not just mean that the top end is better (where the extra flow is needed of course) but it also means that the cam does not have to be so wild with its timing, therefore often meaning better low and mid range also due to a less peaky engine (if the flow and port shapes etc are right)
A good 4 valve head should be way better than a 2 valver on most of the rev range if everything else is optimized in relationship.
Interesting project.
Jules
piranha-bro2
Hero member
- Location
- Melbourne
MarnixSFC said:
I absolutely love it! Anyone who puts serious time into doing wild things to Laverdas gets a big, fat chapeau in my book. And I thought some of my mods were out there!!!
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
for me it is the "what if Laverda would have had the financial background to go for 4-valve"-factor that makes it very interesting. I am always amazed by the skills, talent, know-how and will to turn an Idea into a product that some here show. Be it Red's great achievements with his race and street engines or the many modifications he did to ignition, alternators, clutch etc. etc. etc. or the great ideas shared here from people that were just not happy with something and developed a solution for it.
Gijs took it to a totally different level now and his efforts are surely comparable with what Cor (R.I.P) did to get two V6 alive out of barely one complete bike. Absolutely stunning job and please give Gijs the time to develop it to a point where real figures make sense to be disclosed.
Is it for the average Laverdisti? for sure not. Does it mean a lot of afford, cash and passion has to be thrown at an engine to make it work? I bet it is, and that is not the end: suspension, frame strengthening, wheels, brakes etc. will eat funds quicker than you can earn them. But the "what's possible" effect just simply amazes me and I am curious as all of you to learn more about the project.
Gijs took it to a totally different level now and his efforts are surely comparable with what Cor (R.I.P) did to get two V6 alive out of barely one complete bike. Absolutely stunning job and please give Gijs the time to develop it to a point where real figures make sense to be disclosed.
Is it for the average Laverdisti? for sure not. Does it mean a lot of afford, cash and passion has to be thrown at an engine to make it work? I bet it is, and that is not the end: suspension, frame strengthening, wheels, brakes etc. will eat funds quicker than you can earn them. But the "what's possible" effect just simply amazes me and I am curious as all of you to learn more about the project.
G
Grant
Guest
POP has all the chassis, suspension, braking, grip modifications needed to work with such an engine.
If only I had the money.
I think the engine would need modified crank including Carrillo rods or similar, the Nikasil barrels, head, cams, EFI, cam cover.
No idea if the primary drive would need beefed up, plus then there's Red's outrigger mainshaft conversion.
I wonder if it needs a whole new ignition package or if an Ignitech or similar would cope.
I would guess such upgrades would be well into 5 figures.
A standard engine restoration (no modifications) runs easily over ?5,000, never mind all the new stuff that will not be cheap.
If only I had the money.
I think the engine would need modified crank including Carrillo rods or similar, the Nikasil barrels, head, cams, EFI, cam cover.
No idea if the primary drive would need beefed up, plus then there's Red's outrigger mainshaft conversion.
I wonder if it needs a whole new ignition package or if an Ignitech or similar would cope.
I would guess such upgrades would be well into 5 figures.
A standard engine restoration (no modifications) runs easily over ?5,000, never mind all the new stuff that will not be cheap.
Laverdalothar
Hero member
- Location
- Germany
I suppose the EFI comes with an according computer/box that will handle ignition and injection timing. would be pointless to have two different systems from point of view, but that is also something that would benefit from some more description on the webpage, I agree... :
In a perfect world, it would even come with a wide-band lambda sensor that could "re-adjust" the injection timing/duration. That would help to adjust it to every single bike easily. But then that would also increase cost... We'll see. Gijs is a very smart man, I assume he will come up with a great system. That alone could make some bikes running really nicely...
In a perfect world, it would even come with a wide-band lambda sensor that could "re-adjust" the injection timing/duration. That would help to adjust it to every single bike easily. But then that would also increase cost... We'll see. Gijs is a very smart man, I assume he will come up with a great system. That alone could make some bikes running really nicely...
MVma
Hero member
I reckon that I was hoping for more enthusiastic comments on what is undoubtedly one of the most remarkable developments for our machines.
On my side, I think that this kit is even much more interesting for road machines than for racing, because it will allow to obtain a modern, powerful and smooth engine operation without losing the identity and character of the original engine.
I am not sure that for the moment everyone has realized the revolution that represents such a development and also the perspectives that it offers at a time when we almost no longer find triple cylinder heads, even in average condition... I still remember that I looked for 3 years for a good cylinder head for my project bike (including from the best specialists like Peter Herrmann and Wolfgang Haerter) and that it was only with incredible luck that I was able to find in Spain a TTF1 model in correct condition.
We must also keep in mind that many in the Laverda community have spent a lot of money to develop the original engines with power greater (but not always) than 100 hp, without however reaching an acceptable level of reliability over time, mainly due to the age of the components and poor original heat exchange.
Surely this kit will not be cheap but I am not sure that it will cost much more in the end than all our repeated investments on our almost 50 years old engines, while never be able to get the same performance and reliability.
Even if it's a very different case, all that reminds me the discussion about the Laverda/Aprilia SFC 1000. I always thought it was a fantastic and well-designed machine. No matter that it was a disguised Aprilia, Ivano Beggio had the panache to propose this renaissance of Laverda through one of the most beautiful (and efficient) motorcycle projects of the 2000s and I found it too unfortunate that the comments from some Laverda enthusiasts were not more grateful for this unique effort to revive our favourite marque.
On my side, I think that this kit is even much more interesting for road machines than for racing, because it will allow to obtain a modern, powerful and smooth engine operation without losing the identity and character of the original engine.
I am not sure that for the moment everyone has realized the revolution that represents such a development and also the perspectives that it offers at a time when we almost no longer find triple cylinder heads, even in average condition... I still remember that I looked for 3 years for a good cylinder head for my project bike (including from the best specialists like Peter Herrmann and Wolfgang Haerter) and that it was only with incredible luck that I was able to find in Spain a TTF1 model in correct condition.
We must also keep in mind that many in the Laverda community have spent a lot of money to develop the original engines with power greater (but not always) than 100 hp, without however reaching an acceptable level of reliability over time, mainly due to the age of the components and poor original heat exchange.
Surely this kit will not be cheap but I am not sure that it will cost much more in the end than all our repeated investments on our almost 50 years old engines, while never be able to get the same performance and reliability.
Even if it's a very different case, all that reminds me the discussion about the Laverda/Aprilia SFC 1000. I always thought it was a fantastic and well-designed machine. No matter that it was a disguised Aprilia, Ivano Beggio had the panache to propose this renaissance of Laverda through one of the most beautiful (and efficient) motorcycle projects of the 2000s and I found it too unfortunate that the comments from some Laverda enthusiasts were not more grateful for this unique effort to revive our favourite marque.
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
MVma said:
Well ...... this is the Laverda forum.
I think it is very cool and I really look forward to seeing more of this motor. I don?t think I?ll be able to afford one ........ but I can always dream.
Jim
helicopterjim
Hero member
- Location
- near Lone Butte, BC, Canada
Paul Marx said:
Will you?
Jim
On the boring subject of insurance, if you assume 10k cost, probably conservative and to which add the cost a somebody fitting it all, and add that to an existing value of maybe 10k, you have da da, 20k. You would need to get the value agreed by an insurer and find one who would agree those alterations. I havent tried anything like that myself, they always seem touchy if you even mention changes to suspension! Would that need type approval in Germany? Sorry for raising tedious practicalities, the idea of this does appeal and i hope can be shown to all work in practice.
chrisk
Hero member
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
The power increase to say 160hp does not necessitate insurmountable beefing up of major engine components. Rods would be a given.
You can presume that in a relatively stock motor, that if you increase the hp by 60hp that the engine is going to be under too much strain, and bust. But going with the mods available would make the power delivery totally different to what you have as standard.
I remember having a two valve Jawa speedway engine. One of our fellow racers fitted a 4 valve conversion. I rode that bike, and wow, the 4 valve motor was, not only way faster, but was so smooth in it?s power delivery, more tractable and so much easier to ride than the original 2 valve, which needed thrashing to keep up.
Remember the old saying.
Going fast doesn?t blow up engines, it?s how you get there, and what you do getting there, that blows them up. Think drag racing vs salt racing.
You can presume that in a relatively stock motor, that if you increase the hp by 60hp that the engine is going to be under too much strain, and bust. But going with the mods available would make the power delivery totally different to what you have as standard.
I remember having a two valve Jawa speedway engine. One of our fellow racers fitted a 4 valve conversion. I rode that bike, and wow, the 4 valve motor was, not only way faster, but was so smooth in it?s power delivery, more tractable and so much easier to ride than the original 2 valve, which needed thrashing to keep up.
Remember the old saying.
Going fast doesn?t blow up engines, it?s how you get there, and what you do getting there, that blows them up. Think drag racing vs salt racing.
I admire the engineering but can't help thinking it's to late in the day and as different people have concerns about other components i won't be bothering.
In fact while writing this i remember seeing a sfc 1000 with a sheared mainshaft at slaters one day Richards comment was they can't handle to much abuse.
Regards Andy
In fact while writing this i remember seeing a sfc 1000 with a sheared mainshaft at slaters one day Richards comment was they can't handle to much abuse.
Regards Andy
Mactriple
Hero member
- Location
- Wide Bay Queensland
Theoretical considerations are all very well but the proof of the pudding... Dyno results would be a handy sales help and also some thoughts from a test rider. I hope it all works out. Cheers
Ian
Ian
andre g
Hero member
I am totally impressed about the work, the engineering and the result of Gijs development.
I also hope that those who invested their money in this project on different items like head, barrels, injection, pistons and ignition will have some sort of ROI. But I just had a look on the technical rules of the European Classic Endurance races I found that this might be not used for these series. Maybe there are where we can watch and listen to this impressive development.
http://www.europeanclassicseries.eu/sites/default/files/files/ECS%2018%20Reg%20Tec%20EN.pdf
but I wonder why 4 valve Guzzis are according the rules????
Andre
I also hope that those who invested their money in this project on different items like head, barrels, injection, pistons and ignition will have some sort of ROI. But I just had a look on the technical rules of the European Classic Endurance races I found that this might be not used for these series. Maybe there are where we can watch and listen to this impressive development.
http://www.europeanclassicseries.eu/sites/default/files/files/ECS%2018%20Reg%20Tec%20EN.pdf
but I wonder why 4 valve Guzzis are according the rules????
Andre
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