Eu U-turn on petrol cars

[Steve G.]

Ford Motor Company admits defeat and loses billions to being forced into the electric vehicle JOKE!
Ford Admits Defeat After Trying to Force Americans into Electric Cars and Trucks

Ford Admits Defeat After Trying to Force Americans into Electric Cars and Trucks

Ford said Monday it expected to take about $19.5 billion in charges as it retreats from the electric vehicle business, a massive hit as the automaker pivots to traditional gas vehicles along with hybrid and plug-in hybrid models in place of EVs.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Ian Short]

From AI...:

Electric vehicles (EVs) burn significantly less often than internal combustion engine (ICE) cars, with data showing EVs having far fewer fires per 100,000 vehicles sold, though EV fires can be harder to extinguish and may reignite due to battery chemistry, leading to high-profile incidents that skew public perception despite lower overall risk. For instance, some data shows around 25 EV fires per 100,000 sold versus 1,530 for gasoline cars, making gasoline cars far more prone to igniting.
Key Statistics & Comparisons

• US Data (NTSB): EVs have about 25 fires per 100,000 vehicles sold, while gasoline cars have around 1,530, and hybrids 3,475.
• European Studies: Reports from Sweden and London show similar trends, with ICE vehicles being 20-30 times more likely to catch fire than EVs.
• Miles Traveled: One report suggests one Tesla fire for every 205 million miles, far less than the average for all car types.

Why the Misconception?

• Media Coverage: EV fires, while rare, are dramatic and get more media attention, creating a perception of higher risk.
• Extinguishment Challenges: EV battery fires involve complex chemistry (like lithium-ion) and can reach extreme temperatures (over 1,200°F), requiring more water and time to cool and prevent reignition, which challenges firefighters and makes incidents seem more severe.

In Summary
Despite their challenging extinguishment, data consistently shows EVs are far less prone to catching fire than gasoline or hybrid vehicles; they are simply a different type of fire risk.

Great data points....... it doesn't touch on the realities of what happens WHEN one kicks off. Think Fremantle Highway in an underground garage with a high population density.

Statistically flying is much safer than driving, however when it goes wrong it really goes wrong.

Bear in mind that once the EV Utopia has been created that 100% of all car fires will be EV's

 

[Ian Short]

Ford Motor Company admits defeat and loses billions to being forced into the electric vehicle JOKE!
Ford Admits Defeat After Trying to Force Americans into Electric Cars and Trucks

Ford Admits Defeat After Trying to Force Americans into Electric Cars and Trucks

Ford said Monday it expected to take about $19.5 billion in charges as it retreats from the electric vehicle business, a massive hit as the automaker pivots to traditional gas vehicles along with hybrid and plug-in hybrid models in place of EVs.

www.breitbart.com

I have some firsthand understanding of that particular situation and the only comment that I feel comfortable making is that Ford isn't the only company.

Drop a few of the EV purists from around the globe into Terrace BC on a -35*C evening in February and see how well they do on a EV drive to Fraser Lake.

 

[rocketonarail]

Biggest markdown as far as electric motorcycles are concerned for me ...... ( not withstanding range ...... purchase price ...... battery longevity / cost of replacement / cost to the environment when it comes to disposal ) ......... is ................

........ No clutch or gearbox ........ No more downshifting two or three gears on the approach to a corner , balancing engine revs to road speed ...... No more short shifting or red - lining on the exit .......... These are one of the main attractions , if not the very essence of motorcycling in my opinion .........

An EV removes that direct interaction between man and machine ........ all you are left with is a soulless means of transportation ...... which is fine if that represents the limit to your expectations ..............

 

[Exmoor beast]

Biggest markdown as far as electric motorcycles are concerned for me ...... ( not withstanding range ...... purchase price ...... battery longevity / cost of replacement / cost to the environment when it comes to disposal ) ......... is ................

........ No clutch or gearbox ........ No more downshifting two or three gears on the approach to a corner , balancing engine revs to road speed ...... No more short shifting or red - lining on the exit .......... These are one of the main attractions , if not the very essence of motorcycling in my opinion .........

An EV removes that direct interaction between man and machine ........ all you are left with is a soulless means of transportation ...... which is fine if that represents the limit to your expectations ..............

A playing card in the spokes will give you a realistic engine sound. The fact is our generation is in love with the petrol engine and 90% of that is sound they make. I once rode my Guzz down a mountain in the Pyrenees with the engine off- I was running out of fuel and it was a good plan to get me to a petrol station . I remember thinking how unlike riding a motorcycle it was, more like a bicycle. I have just started riding two strokes again after thirty years- what a great laugh they are. An EV car wouldn’t worry me in the slightest, I dislike driving - it’s a means to an end so makes no difference to me. Motorcycles must have a petrol engine or they are just E-bikes.

 

[Paul Marx]

The EU has reduced it's aim in 2035 from 100 % new EVs to 90%.
Nothing very earth shaking.
One has to keep selling black German cars to the boys.
( I'm amazed that one can still find black paint on the market)
Paul

 

[Ian Short]

Biggest markdown as far as electric motorcycles are concerned for me ...... ( not withstanding range ...... purchase price ...... battery longevity / cost of replacement / cost to the environment when it comes to disposal ) ......... is ................

........ No clutch or gearbox ........ No more downshifting two or three gears on the approach to a corner , balancing engine revs to road speed ...... No more short shifting or red - lining on the exit .......... These are one of the main attractions , if not the very essence of motorcycling in my opinion .........

An EV removes that direct interaction between man and machine ........ all you are left with is a soulless means of transportation ...... which is fine if that represents the limit to your expectations ..............

My father had the experience of riding an early Zero Motorcycle's electric enduro and one of his comments to me was how seamless he found the transition from conventional gearbox to no gearbox, and how he felt it was an easier platform to adapt to than he had anticipated. I've never ridden one but I do respect his opinion.

To your point regarding electric motorcycles here is an exerpt from some previous discussions that I've had.

One of the things that EV purists never discuss is the cost that the end user is going to incur when something goes wrong...... and it will eventually. The cost of replacing FET's or IGBT's, the associated inverter bus and/or output bus and capacitors costs are significant relative to the purchase price of the vehicle. The proprietary control boards and battery packs are of considerable cost and does the manufacture have them in stock to support the dealer network? What is the estimated delivery time of back ordered components?

Pick one of the component groups to repair (ie failed FET's or IGBT's) and with dealer service you are likely in the $1k repair range...... pick two component groups and watch the costs rise.

Does your dealer network have trained technicians to diagnose and service the equipment that they are selling?

I am of the opinion that EV motorcycles at the present time are more of a novelty. It will be interesting to see if any of the EV motorcycle companies can garner enough funds to establish a dealer network with trained technicians and a secure supply chain of replacement parts.

Until that time I'll take an AJS 350 Boy Racer over a Stark Varg....... Although I could be seriously tempted by a Vintage Electric e-bike, and with the crackdown on dirtbikes by the eco-marxists and bedwetters this could be a fantastic way to hit urban trails from your front door.

Cheers.

 

[Steve G.]

I have some firsthand understanding of that particular situation and the only comment that I feel comfortable making is that Ford isn't the only company.

Drop a few of the EV purists from around the globe into Terrace BC on a -35*C evening in February and see how well they do on a EV drive to Fraser Lake.

Hey, I recently retired from 11yrs as a Tesla technician . I completely understand!

 

[Andy J]

My father had the experience of riding an early Zero Motorcycle's electric enduro and one of his comments to me was how seamless he found the transition from conventional gearbox to no gearbox, and how he felt it was an easier platform to adapt to than he had anticipated. I've never ridden one but I do respect his opinion.

To your point regarding electric motorcycles here is an exerpt from some previous discussions that I've had.

One of the things that EV purists never discuss is the cost that the end user is going to incur when something goes wrong...... and it will eventually. The cost of replacing FET's or IGBT's, the associated inverter bus and/or output bus and capacitors costs are significant relative to the purchase price of the vehicle. The proprietary control boards and battery packs are of considerable cost and does the manufacture have them in stock to support the dealer network? What is the estimated delivery time of back ordered components?

Pick one of the component groups to repair (ie failed FET's or IGBT's) and with dealer service you are likely in the $1k repair range...... pick two component groups and watch the costs rise.

Does your dealer network have trained technicians to diagnose and service the equipment that they are selling?

I am of the opinion that EV motorcycles at the present time are more of a novelty. It will be interesting to see if any of the EV motorcycle companies can garner enough funds to establish a dealer network with trained technicians and a secure supply chain of replacement parts.

Until that time I'll take an AJS 350 Boy Racer over a Stark Varg....... Although I could be seriously tempted by a Vintage Electric e-bike, and with the crackdown on dirtbikes by the eco-marxists and bedwetters this could be a fantastic way to hit urban trails from your front door.

Cheers.

Unfortunately i’m currently in that situation with my wife’s 12 year old Peugeot ion EV. It went into ‘turtle’ mode a couple of week’s back and had to be recovered to the local garage. They ran a diagnostic check and came up with a shed load of ‘bad communication’ errors, most likely a failed control unit. I made an enquiry to the parts department of the franchise dealer, as I wanted to know what the likely cost would be to ‘repair’ the car, in anticipation it would be greater than the value of the car. The price soon became immaterial as the parts are just not available anymore. I’ve seen a couple of allegedly working s/h components for sale but I doubt I’ll find many, if any, people willing to fit them, so it Looks like it could be going for scrap - well it would if anyone does that with EVs on the IOM, but they don’t. Therefore, it will probably end up rusting away on my drive.

 

[Ian Short]

Hey, I recently retired from 11yrs as a Tesla technician . I completely understand!

Well that is f#*ing awesome because I have a couple of questions that nobody seems to be able to answer for me. The answer to the first question will determine my next Can you tell me what the DC bus voltage to the inverters is?

 

[Ian Short]

Unfortunately i’m currently in that situation with my wife’s 12 year old Peugeot ion EV. It went into ‘turtle’ mode a couple of week’s back and had to be recovered to the local garage. They ran a diagnostic check and came up with a shed load of ‘bad communication’ errors, most likely a failed control unit. I made an enquiry to the parts department of the franchise dealer, as I wanted to know what the likely cost would be to ‘repair’ the car, in anticipation it would be greater than the value of the car. The price soon became immaterial as the parts are just not available anymore. I’ve seen a couple of allegedly working s/h components for sale but I doubt I’ll find many, if any, people willing to fit them, so it Looks like it could be going for scrap - well it would if anyone does that with EVs on the IOM, but they don’t. Therefore, it will probably end up rusting away on my drive.

Hi Andy, sorry to hear of you wife's vehicle issues, it's always a cause of some stress in a household.

I know I like to "take the piss" out of people for their views on EV's and create an "Us vs Them Narrative", and while not totally in jest it does bring up larger questions to consider.

I for one, have a hard time scraping something that in my opinion still has utility once repaired due to some version of "planned obsolescence". It doesn't sit well with my pocketbook or my sensibilities as a problem solver (sic).

I completely forgot that I had taken a pic of this Lito Sora which is manufactured in Quebec......... I was much more interested in the owners TM Racing supermoto and his collection of 8 plus Aprilia SXV's of varing years and model options.

 

[Steve G.]

Well that is f#*ing awesome because I have a couple of questions that nobody seems to be able to answer for me. The answer to the first question will determine my next Can you tell me what the DC bus voltage to the inverters is?

No, I cannot. It is a Tesla secret!



Actually I don’t know. When our shop requires battery replacement or high voltage system repairs, we are required to take the vehicle to the Tesla only electric repair facility. We are not authorized to conduct any high voltage repairs.

 

[Ian Short]

No, I cannot. It is a Tesla secret!



Actually I don’t know. When our shop requires battery replacement or high voltage system repairs, we are required to take the vehicle to the Tesla only electric repair facility. We are not authorized to conduct any high voltage repairs.

LOL well there you go. My understanding is that they are using a series/parallel mosfet's config for the inverters which should put DC bus voltage in the 300Vdc range...... but I could stand to be corrected. The company that I'm employed by uses a similar configuration for our 400kHz units.

Do you have an idea of the inverter switching frequency, how many Hertz they operate at?

Not trying to put you on the spot........ if they are guarding all of that from the service techs I get it.

 

[Steve G.]

LOL well there you go. My understanding is that they are using a series/parallel mosfet's config for the inverters which should put DC bus voltage in the 300Vdc range...... but I could stand to be corrected. The company that I'm employed by uses a similar configuration for our 400kHz units.

Do you have an idea of the inverter switching frequency, how many Hertz they operate at?

Not trying to put you on the spot........ if they are guarding all of that from the service techs I get it.

Haven’t got a clue! In fact, it wasn’t until post covid that if there was to be a main battery change from a car crash, we would have to arrange with Tesla HQ to fly up their ‘battery team’ to re&I the $26,000 battery that we had previously ordered in, put them in a hotel, etc. now there’s a full electric diagnostic Tesla shop for that stuff.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Great data points....... it doesn't touch on the realities of what happens WHEN one kicks off. Think Fremantle Highway in an underground garage with a high population density.

Statistically flying is much safer than driving, however when it goes wrong it really goes wrong.

Bear in mind that once the EV Utopia has been created that 100% of all car fires will be EV's

So i assume you don't fly anymore, you don't ride Motorcycles (as that is much more dangerous when it goes wrong than driving a car, too), you don't use cell phones or any other battery holding device, right?

This is pure panic creating, missleading information regarding the fires.

The main point for car manufactureres to be against electric cars is simply: the value chain is outside of their factory and the dealers can't ripp you off on every service, because there is almost none necessary.

Follow the money and you'll see what drives their decisions...

And what is wrong with reducing the number of fires in a car bei over 90%? You confused the arguments here a bit...

 

[sfcpiet]

The main point for car manufactureres to be against electric cars is simply: the value chain is outside of their factory and the dealers can't ripp you off on every service, because there is almost none necessary.

Follow the money and you'll see what drives their decisions...

But there seems absolutely no avoiding the little that remains, they've got their clientele tightly by the balls...

Reckon there's no longer a comprehensive "troubleshooting" chapter in the owners manual either. About the only things that could be outsourced would be tyres and brake servicing.

piet

 

[Laverdalothar]

My father had the experience of riding an early Zero Motorcycle's electric enduro and one of his comments to me was how seamless he found the transition from conventional gearbox to no gearbox, and how he felt it was an easier platform to adapt to than he had anticipated. I've never ridden one but I do respect his opinion.

To your point regarding electric motorcycles here is an exerpt from some previous discussions that I've had.

One of the things that EV purists never discuss is the cost that the end user is going to incur when something goes wrong...... and it will eventually. The cost of replacing FET's or IGBT's, the associated inverter bus and/or output bus and capacitors costs are significant relative to the purchase price of the vehicle. The proprietary control boards and battery packs are of considerable cost and does the manufacture have them in stock to support the dealer network? What is the estimated delivery time of back ordered components?

Pick one of the component groups to repair (ie failed FET's or IGBT's) and with dealer service you are likely in the $1k repair range...... pick two component groups and watch the costs rise.

Does your dealer network have trained technicians to diagnose and service the equipment that they are selling?

I am of the opinion that EV motorcycles at the present time are more of a novelty. It will be interesting to see if any of the EV motorcycle companies can garner enough funds to establish a dealer network with trained technicians and a secure supply chain of replacement parts.

Until that time I'll take an AJS 350 Boy Racer over a Stark Varg....... Although I could be seriously tempted by a Vintage Electric e-bike, and with the crackdown on dirtbikes by the eco-marxists and bedwetters this could be a fantastic way to hit urban trails from your front door.

Cheers.

What does it cost to repair or exchange conventional engines, how much service cost do you safe over the years etc.?

We have currently 3 companies in Germany as far as I know at least that can repair drive units, battery systems etc. etc.

I had to "service" my Audi engine twice for the cam chains. On a V6 TFSI Engine from Audi, this is a "front completely dismanteled, engine out" operation. Estimated cost for exchanging the cam chains? 9.000€. Every 80.000km. Talking about costs, really??

I have had to do the engine on my Jota twice. Could have bought me at least one new motorcycle just for the engine works...

I have a Tesla. The people with Battery issues typically have a car that is either 10 - 15 years old and/or has done 300.000 plus kilometers. The cost of repairing a battery is around 7.000€. If you exchange it at Tesla with a refurbished one, it is about 10.000€, with a new one about 20.000€. Sounds a lot. Compared to the Audi, 300.000km means 4 x 9.000€ proposed "Service" cost, which would equal 36.000€.

Talking about cost? sure...

 

[Laverdalothar]

But there seems absolutely no avoiding the little that remains, they've got their clientele tightly by the balls...

Reckon there's no longer a comprehensive "troubleshooting" chapter in the owners manual either. About the only things that could be outsourced would be tyres and brake servicing.

piet

Piet, at least with Tesla, that is not true, sorry. The online service manual from Tesla is brilliant, you can fix almost anything on the car yourself.

2020-2024 Model Y Service Manual | Tesla

service.tesla.com

Also the standard Manual is very good, but you can also simply type in on the main screen what you are looking for. Then there is free access to the Service-Menu on the car which allows you even to exchange the rear brake parts f.e. yourself etc. etc. etc.

The Service left is exchanging Filters, wipers, Brake fluid, Brake-pads or discs or oil from the electric engines transmission. These can be done by any service station - or yourself! Except for the brake fluid (which was exchanged during an "end of warrenty check" after 4 years), I only had to exchange the air filters and wipers so far. No other service cost, nothing. Updates and even Software Upgrades come with OTA (over the air) service. I got f.e. matrix lights free of charge, as the headlights were LED already, it was just not supported by the software when i bought the car. 2 years later, an update of the software activated matrix lights - brilliant!

Further to that: There is a VERY big aftermarket even for suspension parts meanwhile and tons of companies that do services and repairs outside Tesla. Same goes for other brands (who partly force their customers to a regular service as part of the warrenty though, which Tesla doesn't).

 

[Perry]

It's the sheer cost of the things along with the restricted range that I think is slowing the take up. Lots of talk on here about Tesla and 4x4's etc which I imagine cost 30 or 40k. Well an awful lot of people have to deal in the £1500 to £3000 range and they simply do not have the money to go electric even if they wanted to.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Perry, I understand that and you are right. But those are not the customers for new cars, they most probably will buy and use cars that are 10+ years old. EV's will come into that range in the next 5 - 8 years. Cheaper cars come on the market for those now like the iD Polo (shall be around 25.000€ and is the size of a A1 Audi or the Corsa EV). For single or dual person transport, this is more than enough. Maybe not for a family with dog, that's clear. We have even people around here that buy their kids electric cars that can be driven at the age of 16 (normal cars from 18). They are also good for elderly people or singles for local transportation:

E-Auto Kleinwagen M-Bai 3kW bis 45km/h – ElektroBest.de

elektrobest.de

My wife f.e. only drives 10km a day, 5 each way to her work. this would be an ideal transportation for her, as for longer distances or vacations, we do have the Model Y.

Regarding range, which is one of the most used counter-"argument":

Over here, the average daily commute for 95% of the cars is less than 30 kilometers. Das that sound like a range issue to you? Factually, the argument focusses the very rare exceptions instead of the majority of the transportations. Ask yourself: how many times of the year do you drive more than 300km/200 Miles a day? And now imagine, you simply park your car at home and re-charge it - just like you do with your cell-phone every night, right?

For the rare cases that travel longer distances, EV might not be the right choice if done under time pressure. For vacation times: we have people on the forum that pulled a trailor down to Portugal's south coast, which is roughly 2.700km from their home. Yes, took some time, but they simply enjoyed the journey. We have lots of people that travel throughout europe with no or minor issues. Range is a frequently, but very weak argument, at least where I am located or for the above average commute...

Oh - and how many miles can you put on one tank full of your bike? Is anyone moaning about having to refill it every 200km/130 miles? No, right, because it's simply normal and you plan those regular stops in. Why is it a problem to recharge your car every 400km/250 Miles, please?

Just some food for thoughts...