Eu U-turn on petrol cars

[Steve G.]

Any inside info on if the Japs do a better job of making Eveready powered cars, say Toyota for example?

Toyota’s hybrid and electric systems are very reliable and very highly regarded. Honda also very good. Kia and Hyundai are to be avoided. Nissan are ok, but replacement cost of a Leaf battery quickly exceeds triple the cost of the car on the used car market.
Another unique aspect of ALL electric vehicles in my jurisdiction (British Columbia). This province has the largest fleet of car ferries in the world, servicing dozens of islands and land locked villages from Washington state to Alaska. BC Ferries has banned ALL non-operational EV cars and trucks from boarding their ships for safety fire reasons, via tow trucks and flat deck tow trucks. They must be transported to mainland repair Centers via private barge and tugboat companies . There have been incidents of fire, so BC Ferries just banned all that do not load under their own power.

 

[chrisk]

Toyota’s hybrid and electric systems are very reliable and very highly regarded. Honda also very good. Kia and Hyundai are to be avoided. Nissan are ok, but replacement cost of a Leaf battery quickly exceeds triple the cost of the car on the used car market.
Another unique aspect of ALL electric vehicles in my jurisdiction (British Columbia). This province has the largest fleet of car ferries in the world, servicing dozens of islands and land locked villages from Washington state to Alaska. BC Ferries has banned ALL non-operational EV cars and trucks from boarding their ships for safety fire reasons, via tow trucks and flat deck tow trucks. They must be transported to mainland repair Centers via private barge and tugboat companies . There have been incidents of fire, so BC Ferries just banned all that do not load under their own power.

I drive trucks, mainly transporting caravans, but other vehicles as well.

I heard a lot of radio chatter one night and a northbound trucks rear trailer was on fire (Brown Flat NSW) A shipment of pallets of e-bikes and scooters had gone up, the trailer was disconnected but burnt all its freight and trailer to the ground. It was still in flames when I went past, southbound.

One of our friendly competitors had a caravan go up in smoke on one of their trucks due to its lithium batteries self destructing on route.

Like your BC ferries, we are about to be limited to what we can carry (self governed)

This is still in its early stages, but sounds like all EVs are out and caravans might need to have lithium batteries removed before being transported.

I have a personal issue with this because I almost purchased an e-scooter as a means of transport, to purchase meals and supplies, when I have to park up outside township boundaries (almost a daily occurrence), and, my trucks bunk cooler is electric and is powered by a huge 24v lithium battery

I do know of one large car carrier firm that now have EV specific transporters. There’s nothing special about the trailers, just that EV and other vehicles are not permitted to be jointly freighted. The logic is, if one EV goes up, they all go up. I’m sure there will be a specific freight rate for the privilege

Trains carry a lot of cars east west 4,500klms here, it’ll be interesting to see what they do.

A fucken can of worms just transporting the things, let alone owning one. My wife wants one (hence the Toyota question) if she gets one, it’ll be parked on the street!

 

[Alzero]

We have twice rented Toyota RAV-4 hybrids and have been very impressed. Obviously build quality is excellent, but the hybrid system is extremely well integrated such that the only way one would be able to distinguish between pure battery, pure ICE and blended battery/ICE is by looking at the display on the instrument panel. Pure EV range is only a couple of kms, but the added electric power makes a smaller ICE feel like a bigger one. If I needed a car today I would buy a Toyota hybrid without hesitation. The only questions would be, which size or model and would we get the one with the bigger battery and greater EV range.

 

[Steve G.]

We have twice rented Toyota RAV-4 hybrids and have been very impressed. Obviously build quality is excellent, but the hybrid system is extremely well integrated such that the only way one would be able to distinguish between pure battery, pure ICE and blended battery/ICE is by looking at the display on the instrument panel. Pure EV range is only a couple of kms, but the added electric power makes a smaller ICE feel like a bigger one. If I needed a car today I would buy a Toyota hybrid without hesitation. The only questions would be, which size or model and would we get the one with the bigger battery and greater EV range.

There’s actually a few ‘types ‘ of hybrids out there. Maybe a couple. Basically there’s the traditional hybrid, which is an electric system which powers the wheels, with battery electricity, with integrated gasoline engines specific to charge the battery When the battery needs charging. Kinda like a current train locomotive which uses a big deisel to charge battery which powers massive electric motors on each power wheel.
The other hybrid out there uses a full plug in electric system with battery and electric motors, offering minimal city range of 80-90kms, which at the moment that system is about to battery deplete, computers start up completely separate gas engine which takes over propulsion for say, an extended drive trip. When you get to where you were going, you plug in the electric system for the next day ready for another 80-90 kms.

 

[breganzane]

This is an interesting thread, mainly to observe the differing points of view. Some are just closed to the whole idea without having tried it out, others have practicality concerns which might well be real (especially in non-metro Australia). Of people I know directly who have made the switch, 100% of them are deliriously happy and will never go back. They're not all fart-sniffers either, some of them very mechanically inclined and/or have owned very nice performance cars previously.

My view is I'd happily have one for my 70km round-trip commute to work each day, it would be perfect for me. Trouble is, I'm also a cheapskate and although theoretically cheap to run, they're very expensive to buy and own. I've only ever bought used cars, mostly in the 'sweet spot' of depreciation vs life-left, but somehow would be very dubious about buying a used EV, more-so with the guarantee that you'll need to factor in a new battery within 10 years. <And also what becomes of the old battery?>

Then like Rob I dislike the guy running Tesla and the blandness of the cars themselves, that knocks out arguably the most sensible choice immediately. For a while now I drive nice Euro cars, but only by buying them cheap and keeping them running with some effort... a neue klass i3 BMW at $120k is not part of my future. The Chinese are obviously smashing it out of the park with thier EV's at present, but how is the ownership experience long-term? And they're still $60k+ which is twice the most I've ever spent on a car. So far, most EV's have been bought by the very well-off who lease and replace at end of warranty, rinse and repeat. They have no concept nor care for how long the vehicle will be viable for. The only ICE caveat to that is that as noted, present model ICE cars are rapidly becoming unrepairable and are suffering premature engine or transmission failures which can total the car at <10 years of age. It's a conundrum, and why a lot of people are calling c.1995-2015 "peak car".

Then on to fire...

-risk to catch fire is 60 or more times lower

What is the source of that statement Lothar? I've not heard 60 before, more recently the most optimistic figures I heard was 20 times. A few months ago I went to a small amount of effort to check up on that claim and it came from a Swedish study which only looked at the total number of cars on the road versus the number of fires throughout 2022. It was 23/611,000 versus 3400/4,400,000 (4e-5 vs 8e-4 %). Trouble is, there was no differentiation between ages of the cars nor cause of fire, which obviously causes a great distortion to the picture. Those 611,000 EV's on Swedish roads likely had an average age under 5 years - possibly much lower - so for any real comparison you need an equal average and standard deviation of ages for the ICE cars. Likewise, cars deliberately set alite by scumbags, cars which got burnt because the building they were in was on fire already, and so on are irrelevant and should be excluded.

What we care about is how likely is it that the car randomly bursts into flames for no apparent reason (possibly burning me and/or my house down in the process), or how likely is it that I will be burnt to death (or added bonus, electocuted by 800V) in an accident scenario. Those figures are not addressed by that often-referenced Swedish study at least.

 

[smlav]

Does anyone worry about the surfeit of lithium batteries in and around their home/person - phones, tablets, laptops, power tools. ?

My understanding is that you should not mess around with Li batteries and adhere to manufacturers charging systems. It seems a lot of the e-bike fires are the result of someone tinkering with the hardware or buggered about with charging.

I was a bit sceptical when we my wife bought an EV a few years ago, but I became a convert very quickly. I’m not a car lover though, they are just transport for me, and I can’t wait for driverless so I can sit in the back and make better use of the time currently lost behind a steering wheel.

 

[rocketonarail]

Just a line for the new year to remember all the men and women killed in far off places so as to keep the oil flowing. Not to mention all the totalitarian countries supported for the same reason and to keep "the economy" healthy.

Paul

Just as a point of interest ......... France imports the majority of it`s oil from Africa .... ( Algeria , Nigeria and Libya ) ..........

Whereas the UK imports the majority of it`s oil from the USA and Norway .........

Germany meanwhile , also relies on the USA and Norway for the majority of it`s imported oil ......


I am just wondering why this should be ..........

 

[Schurminater]

There is no way on earth I would have an e Scooter anywhere near our property ! and would certainly not recommend charging one and in fact storing one inside I have little to no confidence in them.

Unfortunately as is the norm nowadays we are more and more reliant and in some ways take for granted the reliability and serviceability of the influx of cheap (mainly Chinese) electrical components,chargers etc. which are now common place in our homes and unfortunately it is not until you or someone close to you has a fire or bad experience relating to one do we sit up and take notice of our own set up.

 

[Paul Marx]

Just as a point of interest ......... France imports the majority of it`s oil from Africa .... ( Algeria , Nigeria and Libya ) ..........

Whereas the UK imports the majority of it`s oil from the USA and Norway .........

Germany meanwhile , also relies on the USA and Norway for the majority of it`s imported oil ......


I am just wondering why this should be ..........

History.
Paul

 

[smlav]

For anyone looking for historical information about oil, I can recommend ‘The Prize - the epic quest for oil, money and power’ by Daniel Yergen. There’s also a serialised documentary of it on YouTube, narrated by Donald Sutherland.

 

[rocketonarail]

Actually I think I do know why the UK and Germany obtain their oil (and gas) from Norway ........ It`s The North Sea ....... the vast reserves of which Norway happily continues to exploit .......... whilst the UK Energy Secretary refuses new operating licences ........ thus our increasing future dependency on imported oil ..........

....... although I suppose any domestic UK oil produced goes straight onto the global marketplace , and then has to be bought back by us anyway .......

 

[rocketonarail]

There is no way on earth I would have an e Scooter anywhere near our property ! and would certainly not recommend charging one and in fact storing one inside I have little to no confidence in them.

Unfortunately as is the norm nowadays we are more and more reliant and in some ways take for granted the reliability and serviceability of the influx of cheap (mainly Chinese) electrical components,chargers etc. which are now common place in our homes and unfortunately it is not until you or someone close to you has a fire or bad experience relating to one do we sit up and take notice of our own set up.

A little while ago I posted a video showing unattended laptops bursting into flames .... (caught on CCTV) .........

My current laptop is now some thirteen years old .... ( I like to get my moneys worth out of things , rather than join the merry go round of buying new every few years ..... not very " green" in my opinion ) ....... and although the casing is split and held together with duct tape in places , it continues to direct me towards some rather dubious websites with unfailing reliability ....... ...........

The thing is , it does seem to work better with the mains plugged in whilst I`m using it ...... whilst prompts a warning message to come up relating to over - charging and possible battery damage if I carry on using it in this manner ........

So it`s always unplugged and switched off properly at night ........ and in any case there`s a always a window nearby I can chuck it out of , if if seems to be getting a little warmer than usual..........

 

[Exmoor beast]

Just as a point of interest ......... France imports the majority of it`s oil from Africa .... ( Algeria , Nigeria and Libya ) ..........

Whereas the UK imports the majority of it`s oil from the USA and Norway .........

Germany meanwhile , also relies on the USA and Norway for the majority of it`s imported oil ......


I am just wondering why this should be ..........

And none of it comes from Russia in a roundabout way….

 

[triton]

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest because our current 14 year old Mazda 2 is getting a bit old now and we could do with a change.
I've looked at an EV, way, way too expensive and I refuse to buy a used EV given the uncertainty over battery life remaining and especially if it's a Chinese EV.
So, what to go for then that is practical (we are soon to be moving out of town and into the country and to a market town where there are no EV charging points) and because I hate driving and the constant N-1-N-1-2-N 20mph crawl/jam we want an auto. As has been stated in earlier threads modern ICE engines now come complete with built in obsolescence be it rubber cam belts, a 1.2ltr turbocharged engine that will be lucky to reach 60k before major surgery, dodgy looms or a dry multi plate auto gearbox with questionable shifting.
My conclusion, a Mazda CX5 auto fits the bill perfectly for us. A real 2.0ltr naturally aspirated engine, very little in terms of the dreaded power sapping emissions control gubbins and a proper torque converter auto gearbox. A very well built car also. In the 14 years of Mazda 2 ownership it has never failed an MOT, never broken down, had three tires and one Lambada sensor but only because the O/H insists on driving it to work at crawl speeds taking 90 minutes to drive 13 miles in London!

 

[chrisk]

There is no way on earth I would have an e Scooter anywhere near our property ! and would certainly not recommend charging one and in fact storing one inside I have little to no confidence in them.

Unfortunately as is the norm nowadays we are more and more reliant and in some ways take for granted the reliability and serviceability of the influx of cheap (mainly Chinese) electrical components,chargers etc. which are now common place in our homes and unfortunately it is not until you or someone close to you has a fire or bad experience relating to one do we sit up and take notice of our own set up.

I was gifted a lithium phone charger, it charged my phone really well, then with charging ports everywhere I go I no longer use it.

Found it again in a drawer, about 2 years later, and it had cracked the plastic shell, due to being swollen like a football.

I postulated on where to dispose of it, an issue in itself, because the garbage people say not to bin them, because of garbage trucks going up in smoke.

My work had a new industrial building being constructed nearby, so I took it to work and threw in into a concrete footing hole and covered it with sand ….. and a week or so later it met the fate of a mafia double crosser.

 

[Ian D]

Met a bloke while getting some tyres who had a Toyota hybrid bought second hand, battery shit itself shortly after.
Dealer warranty did not cover the battery. He was not a happy chappy.
So basically just an overweight ICE vehicle.

 

[hooksey]

Met a bloke while getting some tyres who had a Toyota hybrid bought second hand, battery shit itself shortly after.
Dealer warranty did not cover the battery. He was not a happy chappy.
So basically just an overweight ICE vehicle.

Yep, heard the same story……same brand!
A Fad that will just fade away no doubt

 

[Laverdalothar]

Thanks for updating me on Tesla hard options.

Engine rebuilds on combustion engines vary widely. I certainly notice you’ve picked particularly high “value lolol” cars like BMW, Audi, and Porsche engines, which in 2026 have extremely high reputations for minimal engine life, and absolutely outlandish repair costs. Why didn’t you just go right for Ferrari or even Bugatti for the win!!??? My old Ford truck is approaching 400,000 kms next month, I think I replaced a thermostat 9 yrs ago,,,cost me $11,,,,,oh and a brand new crate engine with 3 yr guarantee is $5600cdn, I guess 2500 Euro,,,, just to let you know, I picked the CHEAPEST Tesla battery replacement for comparison sake, not among the most expensive as your path of example went. But hey, I get it.

I like simply to compare apples with apples. A BMW M3 or a Porsche are similar in price and performance to a Model S, a regular BMW 5xx with high performing engine is very similar to my MY AWD. Why should I compare it to Ferrari?

I compared your 18.000USD (which is a complete exchange, not against a refurbished but against a new battery, an extreme therefore...) to the extreme of a car engine exchange - what is wrong with that?

Yes, you can have the ICE engine repaired/overhauled for maybe 6.000€-9.000€. Which is the same as repairing the battery. A "refurbished" Audi A6 3.0 TSFI engine though would be around 16.000€, so even more expensive than a refurbished battery pack. Apples and apples...

The point is, all cars - no matter what technologies move them - will need fixing. If you compare the cost that you spend EVERY F*CKING YEAR on an Audi A6 Allroad (which was my last car that I bought at 30.000km and sold at 217.000km) and what I see as the cost of a tesla, i am not worried about a battery repair at 300.000+km.

On the Audi (all wheel drive, same size car, same class, equivilent power...), my total cost for loss in value, service, tires and repairs in 9 years of ownership was 63.000+€. No kidding. And I bought it really cheap for 34.000€ and 30.000km on it (original purchase price was over 80.000€; imagine you loose 50.000€ in the first 3 years on that car while my net cost for purchasing the MY AWD was 52.000€...). It included 6 sets of tires, equivilent sets of brake pads, 4 exchanges of the brake discs, several suspension repairs (both rear and front air suspension needed replacement and almost any link on the suspension was replaced at least once if not twice), 2 times cam chain replacement (which is 4.500€ each if you do it in a non Audi authorized workshop; at Audi it would have been 9.000€ each...). And that was a "robust Audi" engine... sure...

My Tesla has done 42.000km in 4 1/2 years ( I drive less these years). So far, all I had to spend was 1 Service/repair for less than 900€ plus new filters and wipers, which makes it 1.000€ in 4 years. Tires might come next or overnext year, they still have some profile remaining.

I agree though, that most repairs come later (not so on the Audi though, which cost me awefull lots of money from day one, eating tires and brakes like hell). Nevertheless: if you drive the Tesla for longer, it saves you money compared to similar spaced and similar powerfull cars. Even if you have to replace the battery at one point in time.

Regarding the battery drain: wow. you loose 4km/day. Have you considered what a cold start on an ICE car cost you? My wife only drives short distance. Her Mini Coper (not the S, the normal one) consumes therefore something like 10 Liters/100km instead of maybe 8 which would be normal. That is 20% more. 1,5% sounds cheap, doesn't it?

 

[Laverdalothar]

Met a bloke while getting some tyres who had a Toyota hybrid bought second hand, battery shit itself shortly after.
Dealer warranty did not cover the battery. He was not a happy chappy.
So basically just an overweight ICE vehicle.

Neighbours first hybrid was a Toyota. He put 180.000km on it with no issues. Second set of tires, first set of brakes.

You will find all kind of stories all over the net, because no one tells you when they are happy, but everyone tells you when something breaks.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Then on to fire...



What is the source of that statement Lothar? I've not heard 60 before, more recently the most optimistic figures I heard was 20 times. A few months ago I went to a small amount of effort to check up on that claim and it came from a Swedish study which only looked at the total number of cars on the road versus the number of fires throughout 2022. It was 23/611,000 versus 3400/4,400,000 (4e-5 vs 8e-4 %). Trouble is, there was no differentiation between ages of the cars nor cause of fire, which obviously causes a great distortion to the picture. Those 611,000 EV's on Swedish roads likely had an average age under 5 years - possibly much lower - so for any real comparison you need an equal average and standard deviation of ages for the ICE cars. Likewise, cars deliberately set alite by scumbags, cars which got burnt because the building they were in was on fire already, and so on are irrelevant and should be excluded.

What we care about is how likely is it that the car randomly bursts into flames for no apparent reason (possibly burning me and/or my house down in the process), or how likely is it that I will be burnt to death (or added bonus, electocuted by 800V) in an accident scenario. Those figures are not addressed by that often-referenced Swedish study at least.

tons of sources if you simply look for "how often do EV cars burn compared to conventional cars":

Electric Vehicle Fires: How Often Do They Really Occur?

"Electric cars catch fire faster than conventional vehicles" is a common misconception with little to no evidence to support it. The opposite is true.

www.dekra.com

(DEKRA is a competing institute of the German TÜV/MOT)

How Often Do Electric Cars Catch Fire? | Fire Rover

Get the facts on how often electric cars catch fire. See what causes them, and how industries can safeguard themselves in this FireRover Guide.

firerover.com