Eu U-turn on petrol cars

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rocketonarail said:
Lothar ........ If another German told you this , then I`m afraid it doesn`t count........... ;) .............
Click to expand...
You are right, but these were Britts, Americans, Italiens, Dutch, French and some other nationalities, too, so I do hope that at least one did not lie to me... :oops: ;)

for the other discussion, I apologize if I mixed it up. Still I don't see that even our grand children will see a cooling of the earth or the clima that could result in lower sea levels.

For those arguing that we did benefit from global warming the last several 100 years: Yes, in northern Europe, we did. However, the speed at wich the climate changes has dramatically increased, which has a direct correlation to the last 150 years of the industrialization. Seeing the numbers and not seeing human influence in it is just ignoring the facts. Further to that: if you look into what global warming caused in Africa and other regions a bit closer to the equator already in the past 2.000 years and if you know that every degree centigrade more in avarage means that deserts grow by thousands of square kilometers, I repeat my question: how do we want to feed the world and how do we prepare for a mass migration of people from the south? We might not be able to turn it around anymore, but we can change things so that the temperature increase slowes down again and we get more time to cope with the results.

And to say "I can't do anything about it" is simply wrong. Everyone of us is contributing to it (please google "butterfly effect scientific theory").

I have done my part in saving a local, clima relevant green field that works as a local air condition for my region and that local politicians wanted to build more than 300 houses on. Traffic, heat, surface sealing and influence of the micro clima would have changed our local living massively.

Together with a group of other locals, we used press, TV and other medias, printed several thousand flyers and delivered them to each houshold to make people aware of what is happening, which in the end led to a change in the local government (after 50 years of almost constantly electing one party...). We warned the politicians of the effect if they mess with their voters will. They did not listen. After they lost the election, the head of the party said: "We are shocked and will take the next 14 days to analyse the results and why we lost." I commented: "Give me a call, I'll explain it to you in 2 minutes." He never dared to call me, as he knew exactly why they lost.

BTW: this greenfield is used in several ways and my family owns roughly 4% of the whole territory. We could have made good money selling it to an investor. We decided as a family that we do not need the money, but we need fresh air, we need the place for a walk, for relaxing etc. etc. etc.

not every owner of a part of the area was happy with us, but most were and 5 years after, people still thank us on the streets for having faught for their rights.

So - please don't say you can not do anything, this is - in most cases - just laziness. I am not a politician, I am not an expert. I just was p**d with the ignorance of the local politicians, who ignored their citizens will. And I am not telling this to show-off, I just want to show that it takes every one of us to make a change. It starts with collecting trash and simply bring it to the right place for recycling.
 
If you trust the science, it’s unequivocal that pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere leads to trapping heat. The prediction models of what happens after that are complex, so many feedbacks, but as I understand it all the models point in the same direction of a warmer planet with more dynamic weather.

If you don’t trust the science, I guess that leaves inputs from politicians, news sources, industry, and social media to form your opinion.
 
smlav said:
If you trust the science, it’s unequivocal that pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere leads to trapping heat. The prediction models of what happens after that are complex, so many feedbacks, but as I understand it all the models point in the same direction of a warmer planet with more dynamic weather.

If you don’t trust the science, I guess that leaves inputs from politicians, news sources, industry, and social media to form your opinion.
Click to expand...
And religions.
Paul
 
I would consider myself close to carbon neutral or maybe in credit. As I said I live in an old growth forest with thousands of trees from small to fucken big, like 3m dia. Massive carbon sink. As I spend most of my time at home I'm not driving my 4.2lt diesel land cruiser much, 10-12k kays a year. I fly once or maybe twice every year. My power bills [coal] are fuck all, av. $3/day. I not a consumer either so don't buy useless stuff or upgrade electronics unless they stop working.
So that's my contribution for helping the planet.
The rapid pace of technology and AI is way more of a threat to civilization than climate change.
In my current life I think I won the lottery twice. Being born in the 50s, go baby boomers and being born in Australia growing up at a time of
minimal population, jobs, money wide open spaces and freedoms and ease to do whatever tickled your fancy.
 
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I do not dispute the percentages given for burning cars I am in no position to do so.
I do however have questions as to how they are calculated.

Is consideration given to the sheer number of ICE cars as opposed to EV?
As there are many more older ICE cars in circulation than EV can I assume the figures reflect that?
As EV cars are in their infancy and the cost of those car ensure that the income required to purchase them is also the income bracket that is more likely to have sufficient money to maintain them correctly. Can I assume this is also a consideration?
As ICE cars are apparently easier or more often targeted than EV cars for theft and burning, can I be sure these vandalism ‘fire cases’ are not included in these percentages, as has been suggested in some reports?

The EV culture has just as much propaganda capability as ICE lobbyists and I am sure they are as good at statistics manipulation as anyone.

When someone suggests that one ‘follows the money’ I can not disagree. Elon appears until recently to have been doing very well. He will not be in any 'hand out' queues for a while.

I do like to get the facts straight.

I work on a Polar class vessel and figures posted at a near recent Polar navigation course I attended, pointed out that ten to fifteen years ago, more people had walked on the moon than had completed the North West Passage by sea over the top of North America passing from the Atlantic to the Pacific via the Bearing Straits, in either direction. Now there are cruise ships navigating the area with thousands of people making the trip every summer. How is that possible? Not just less ice, also better navigation and ship construction but definitely less ice.

I will continue to live what I believe to be a fairly low impact life style, at least away from my work environment.
My youngest bike was made in 1994. I do not own a car, my van was built in 1955.
I buy locally produced food products when possible.
I wear shirts I bought over twenty years ago, my best motorcycle boots are on their second set of soles purchased in 2002, etc. etc.

Winter in the northern hemisphere will soon be over and we can return to complaining about the heat.

Happy New Year.
 
Charley said:
I do not dispute the percentages given for burning cars I am in no position to do so.
I do however have questions as to how they are calculated.

Is consideration given to the sheer number of ICE cars as opposed to EV?
As there are many more older ICE cars in circulation than EV can I assume the figures reflect that?
As EV cars are in their infancy and the cost of those car ensure that the income required to purchase them is also the income bracket that is more likely to have sufficient money to maintain them correctly. Can I assume this is also a consideration?
As ICE cars are apparently easier or more often targeted than EV cars for theft and burning, can I be sure these vandalism ‘fire cases’ are not included in these percentages, as has been suggested in some reports?

The EV culture has just as much propaganda capability as ICE lobbyists and I am sure they are as good at statistics manipulation as anyone.

When someone suggests that one ‘follows the money’ I can not disagree. Elon appears until recently to have been doing very well. He will not be in any 'hand out' queues for a while.

I do like to get the facts straight.

I work on a Polar class vessel and figures posted at a near recent Polar navigation course I attended, pointed out that ten to fifteen years ago, more people had walked on the moon than had completed the North West Passage by sea over the top of North America passing from the Atlantic to the Pacific via the Bearing Straits, in either direction. Now there are cruise ships navigating the area with thousands of people making the trip every summer. How is that possible? Not just less ice, also better navigation and ship construction but definitely less ice.

I will continue to live what I believe to be a fairly low impact life style, at least away from my work environment.
My youngest bike was made in 1994. I do not own a car, my van was built in 1955.
I buy locally produced food products when possible.
I wear shirts I bought over twenty years ago, my best motorcycle boots are on their second set of soles purchased in 2002, etc. etc.

Winter in the northern hemisphere will soon be over and we can return to complaining about the heat.

Happy New Year.
Click to expand...
It should be noted that Tesla alone has benefitted from over $38 billion in subsidies, contracts, interest free loans, and other incentives from the U.S. government alone, specifically to unfairly promote electric car sales over other technologies.
In fact, it has been the pullback of state and regional buyer incentives that is emasculating EV sales. They make no sense financially from the manufacturers point of view, as Ford is clearly experiencing, having to recently eat $1.9 billion in utter failure,,,,,they require significant government grants in production, primarily in the batteries, with tax payers footing the bill when these battery production factories ultimately fail.
It’s all a giant money grift from politicians influenced by orange haired, septum ringed hummus eating lefty nutbars. Elon Musk was just a really smart dude who spotted the influence of mentally unwell Greta Thunberg types had on weak government officials.

 
smlav said:
I can’t decide whether they come under industry, politics or the original social media.
Click to expand...
They come under belief.
The contrary of science, which is why Giordano Bruno was burnt, along with others.

There's still way too many believers about.

Paul
 
Don’t overlook the fact that US gov/NASA/military have a high dependence on Elons other companies, SpaceX and Starlink. Of note, when Musk and Trump were divorcing, Musk mentioned switching off SpaceX with immediate effect, and the next day Trump shut up and Musk got what he wanted - no (or slack) regulations for the roll out of driverless cars.

The world of big business and politics is and always has been a murky pit. The science, if you believe it, tells us what is happening and what path we are on if we keep pumping carbon into the atmosphere.
 
And gasoline is less than $4 a gallon in Southern California, less than $3 in many US states—time to fill up the 55-gallon tank on the RV with its 6.8 litre 328HP Ford V10. Or take the Jeep GC with the 5.7 V8 350HP engine; either one will pull my trailer loaded with two Laverda triples to the good roads.

Wait, who is that crying in the corner? Oh, it's Greta, poor thing. I guess she ran out of donated money to fuel up her Jet and ship.
 

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Laverdalothar said:
You are right, but these were Britts, Americans, Italiens, Dutch, French and some other nationalities, too, so I do hope that at least one did not lie to me... :oops: ;)

for the other discussion, I apologize if I mixed it up. Still I don't see that even our grand children will see a cooling of the earth or the clima that could result in lower sea levels.

For those arguing that we did benefit from global warming the last several 100 years: Yes, in northern Europe, we did. However, the speed at wich the climate changes has dramatically increased, which has a direct correlation to the last 150 years of the industrialization. Seeing the numbers and not seeing human influence in it is just ignoring the facts. Further to that: if you look into what global warming caused in Africa and other regions a bit closer to the equator already in the past 2.000 years and if you know that every degree centigrade more in avarage means that deserts grow by thousands of square kilometers, I repeat my question: how do we want to feed the world and how do we prepare for a mass migration of people from the south? We might not be able to turn it around anymore, but we can change things so that the temperature increase slowes down again and we get more time to cope with the results.

And to say "I can't do anything about it" is simply wrong. Everyone of us is contributing to it (please google "butterfly effect scientific theory").

I have done my part in saving a local, clima relevant green field that works as a local air condition for my region and that local politicians wanted to build more than 300 houses on. Traffic, heat, surface sealing and influence of the micro clima would have changed our local living massively.

Together with a group of other locals, we used press, TV and other medias, printed several thousand flyers and delivered them to each houshold to make people aware of what is happening, which in the end led to a change in the local government (after 50 years of almost constantly electing one party...). We warned the politicians of the effect if they mess with their voters will. They did not listen. After they lost the election, the head of the party said: "We are shocked and will take the next 14 days to analyse the results and why we lost." I commented: "Give me a call, I'll explain it to you in 2 minutes." He never dared to call me, as he knew exactly why they lost.

BTW: this greenfield is used in several ways and my family owns roughly 4% of the whole territory. We could have made good money selling it to an investor. We decided as a family that we do not need the money, but we need fresh air, we need the place for a walk, for relaxing etc. etc. etc.

not every owner of a part of the area was happy with us, but most were and 5 years after, people still thank us on the streets for having faught for their rights.

So - please don't say you can not do anything, this is - in most cases - just laziness. I am not a politician, I am not an expert. I just was p**d with the ignorance of the local politicians, who ignored their citizens will. And I am not telling this to show-off, I just want to show that it takes every one of us to make a change. It starts with collecting trash and simply bring it to the right place for recycling.
Click to expand...

Apology accepted ...........

I am glad to hear you were involved in a campaign to save an area close to where you live from predatory developers .........

I have been involved in a similar campaign to purchase a parcel of land on the edge of the town where I live ....... We have now raised enough money to have purchased the land ... ( as far as placing a deposit is concerned ) ...... Further fund raising will hopefully secure it`s long term future .

It will now remain as an area for local people to enjoy ... ( as they have done for many years ) ..... free from the threat of development .


As for dealing with local councillors .......

A similar area of land close to the one described above was recently developed into a small housing estate ....... This development was promoted by a local councillor on the basis that the town would benefit from a " free gift " ... ( his words ) .... of a car park , which the developer would include in their planning application .......

As head of the local Chamber of Commerce , this individual stated the car park was necessary to address parking problems in the town , despite car parking spaces being readily available at various locations already ...... and it would encourage more visitors to the town .

This development was given the go-ahead , despite being outside the designated town boundary ....... Four years later and the houses are there , but the car park is still awaiting completion ......

Whether the car park will ever be used is open to debate , even when it does become available ...... It is a good 200 metre plus walk from the shops it is supposed to serve ....... people will continue to park as close to the High Street as they can , rather than face a 400 metre round walk laden with groceries from this mythical car park and back .

The councillor involved in this debacle has since moved away from the town ........ ( slash , burn and run ) ............


Another town councillor , who runs a long established business in the High street , and who also backed this scheme , bemoaned the fact that an oak tree on the edge of this car park was covered by a Tree Preservation Order ..... so was prevented from being chopped down by the developers .......

His words ... " If that tree was removed , we could have room for another three cars in there ... " .........

This is someone who has placards and displays in his shop extolling the virtues of solar panels , wind turbines and so on ...... and who also supports a well known local greedy businessman who dresses up in a green suit , responsible some years ago for setting up a eco-energy supply company ......

Never mind that trees and plants help to absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere ......... lets chop this tree down so we can squeeze a couple more cars into this car park which has still yet to open ....

As I type this , the aforementioned clown is still a member of the town council ........
 
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rocketonarail said:
Lothar ........ If another German told you this , then I`m afraid it doesn`t count........... ;) .............
Click to expand...

Haha…. Years ago I was on speaker phone at work one evening with one of our German suppliers. Our company Director was still in his office close by.

The next day, I walked into the office and the Director said to the sales manager.

Chris has a gift Pete, he had Johannes in fits of laughter last night, it’s a miracle!

I didn’t let on that Johannes was actually laughing at his own joke…. which wasn’t funny.
 
Perry said:
Lothar
Had you just told these Britts, Americans, Dutch, French and Italien chaps that you never worry about having the last word ?
Click to expand...
be sure, the Britts I know beat me on that all the time... 😂

chrisk said:
Haha…. Years ago I was on speaker phone at work one evening with one of our German suppliers. Our company Director was still in his office close by.

The next day, I walked into the office and the Director said to the sales manager.

Chris has a gift Pete, he had Johannes in fits of laughter last night, it’s a miracle!

I didn’t let on that Johannes was actually laughing at his own joke…. which wasn’t funny.
Click to expand...

Chris, I learned the hard way that what is totally funny in German words can mostly not be translated really to a degree that it makes sense in other languages (and vize versa). Some jokes are international, many aren't. That is mainly why I don't contribute frequently to the "This weeks Joke" thread.
Charley said:
I do not dispute the percentages given for burning cars I am in no position to do so.
I do however have questions as to how they are calculated.

Is consideration given to the sheer number of ICE cars as opposed to EV?
As there are many more older ICE cars in circulation than EV can I assume the figures reflect that?
As EV cars are in their infancy and the cost of those car ensure that the income required to purchase them is also the income bracket that is more likely to have sufficient money to maintain them correctly. Can I assume this is also a consideration?
As ICE cars are apparently easier or more often targeted than EV cars for theft and burning, can I be sure these vandalism ‘fire cases’ are not included in these percentages, as has been suggested in some reports?

The EV culture has just as much propaganda capability as ICE lobbyists and I am sure they are as good at statistics manipulation as anyone.
Click to expand...

Yes, statistics that I refer to allways reflect the percentages in their own category.

Not sure what you mean with "EV culture", please? The lobbyists for ICE cars are roughly 50 times bigger than the ones for EV's. If you compare on a pure logical base both technolgies, EV's are by far the most logical thing to go for:
-less moving parts
-less maintenance and service costs
-less cost per kilometer/mile
-no polution causing in towns
-less brake and tire usage => less micro dust
-less noise production inside and outside
-beyond 30.000km/20.000 Miles, they have a better environmental footprint (based on current energy mix; with charging at home, it goes much down)
-TCO is MUCH better than ICE cars
-typically more space inside
-chargable anywhere you find electricity
-efficiancy of the power used to charge to the one used for driving is around 90% (compared to ICE, where the energy needed to drill, transport, refine, transport, pump and actually burn gas is extremely high and the efficiancy in a car engine is around 23%, the rest just produces heat).
-risk to catch fire is 60 or more times lower
etc. etc. etc.

The only two things that you could find are range (on mainly the entry level cars) with the charging times and that when they actually burn, they burn completely. Thats it. in every other category, they factually win.

This needs no "culture" or even a "cult". It needs one though to not accept it although the facts are clear. ;)

Steve G. said:
It should be noted that Tesla alone has benefitted from over $38 billion in subsidies, contracts, interest free loans, and other incentives from the U.S. government alone, specifically to unfairly promote electric car sales over other technologies.
In fact, it has been the pullback of state and regional buyer incentives that is emasculating EV sales. They make no sense financially from the manufacturers point of view, as Ford is clearly experiencing, having to recently eat $1.9 billion in utter failure,,,,,they require significant government grants in production, primarily in the batteries, with tax payers footing the bill when these battery production factories ultimately fail.
It’s all a giant money grift from politicians influenced by orange haired, septum ringed hummus eating lefty nutbars. Elon Musk was just a really smart dude who spotted the influence of mentally unwell Greta Thunberg types had on weak government officials.

Click to expand...
Well - Tesla is the problem? Ha... https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wh...iving the Most,from the government since 2000.

;)
 
Seeing the Ford Motor Company mentioned in the subsidy list reminds me that they were at one time working with a company in Australia called Orbital Corporation to develop a new generation of two stroke engines for use in their cars .

Whilst chucking out lots of unburnt hydro-carbons , the average two stroke gets a B+ as far as NOx is concerned , it seems ........ That`s why your smokey old RD350 is quite capable of getting a pass certificate as far as Sadiq Kahn`s London ULEZ zone is concerned .........

......... NOx is the deciding factor for Transport for London ............

Euro 3 ULEZ limit for NOx is 0.150 g/km .......... A RD350 tested for a Cert of Compliance recorded just 0.002 g/km !!

Which means as far as a free pass into central London is concerned , your RD / KH / MZ can easily trade blows with the likes of Tesla , with no need to sit down between rounds ........


Sadly it seems Ford / Orbital were unable to solve the unburnt ( straight out of the exhaust port ) hydrocarbon thing .........

So no new Mondeo`s with nothing below 8000 , but everything between 10 and 12000 rpm , I`m afraid ...............
 
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motoddrob said:
I wouldn't buy a Tesla because Elon is a cunt and I don't buy Chinese if I can avoid it, definitely a Chinese car/motorcycle.
Living where I do electric cars just ain't practical,......... yet!
Click to expand...
I bought my Tesla long before Elon got into politic BS. I did not buy it because of Elon, I bought it allthough Elon owns the company. The sum of all factors isn't found at any other company currently, so what should I do? By technology that is crap (or less superior) just because I don't like the head of the company or what he is doing? If I put the same measures to other CEO's of other car companies, I would end up without a car really... 🤷‍♂️

Rob, you life in Australia. Australia has tons of sun. Add a PV-System to your roof that can charge your car, buy a car that has decent millage and off you go. Not sure how far in the bushland you are and what charging infrastructure you have in the region, what your 90% driving range is etc. - It might be, there is no alternative for you, I simply don't know. Normally, where is a will there is a way... 🤷‍♂️
 
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Laverdalothar said:
be sure, the Britts I know beat me on that all the time... 😂



Chris, I learned the hard way that what is totally funny in German words can mostly not be translated really to a degree that it makes sense in other languages (and vize versa). Some jokes are international, many aren't. That is mainly why I don't contribute frequently to the "This weeks Joke" thread.


Yes, statistics that I refer to allways reflect the percentages in their own category.

Not sure what you mean with "EV culture", please? The lobbyists for ICE cars are roughly 50 times bigger than the ones for EV's. If you compare on a pure logical base both technolgies, EV's are by far the most logical thing to go for:
-less moving parts
-less maintenance and service costs
-less cost per kilometer/mile
-no polution causing in towns
-less brake and tire usage => less micro dust
-less noise production inside and outside
-beyond 30.000km/20.000 Miles, they have a better environmental footprint (based on current energy mix; with charging at home, it goes much down)
-TCO is MUCH better than ICE cars
-typically more space inside
-chargable anywhere you find electricity
-efficiancy of the power used to charge to the one used for driving is around 90% (compared to ICE, where the energy needed to drill, transport, refine, transport, pump and actually burn gas is extremely high and the efficiancy in a car engine is around 23%, the rest just produces heat).
-risk to catch fire is 60 or more times lower
etc. etc. etc.

The only two things that you could find are range (on mainly the entry level cars) with the charging times and that when they actually burn, they burn completely. Thats it. in every other category, they factually win.

This needs no "culture" or even a "cult". It needs one though to not accept it although the facts are clear. ;)


Well - Tesla is the problem? Ha... https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-u-s-companies-receive-the-most-government-subsidies/#:~:text=Ranked: Companies Receiving the Most,from the government since 2000.

;)
Click to expand...
Well I didn’t say that, I simply displayed the lack of fiscal base needed to build an all electric vehicle fleet, as Tesla was during the very early days, where vast amounts of US taxpayer cash was needed early on, and constant purchase rebates to new car owners.

Of course this rebate system has run its course here in Canada, as 8-10 yrs of attractive tax rebates has built aN electric vehicle base over 20%, which gives electric cars free road tax, free HOV lanes, free parking, even free electricity at some shopping malls. Reduced income to regional jurisdictions responsible for road maintenance soon found out that these electric cars often weighing 40% more than same size ICE vehicles, are causing much more wear of the roads.all rebates are gone now, and sales are crashing.
 
Well, they could always try the Vietnamese method: a total ban on gasoline fueled scooters in the city of Hanoi starting in July of 2026 in the city center. Simultaneously flooding the market with cheap domestically built e-scooters and e-bikes.
 
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