Weird

motoddrob said:
The new RR is putting out zero across the battery, the old RR is behaving as it was before replacing it putting out 13.7v.
Even swapped out the battery using a spare car battery and same results so have ruled out the new battery.
So my deduction is the RR is fucked.
Bruce, the old battery was working fine if I rode the bike every day. It was when it sat idle for 2 weeks the battery would go flat.
Paul had the same problem with his. Something dodgy about the LH series SSB. The older LF series I've had one in the BM for 7 years and never fail the start.
Click to expand...
What identification of manufacture for the stator and RR rob?
 
Hi John,
The stator is ZZR 250 Kawasaki, the RR I got from Red, I don't remember seeing any markings but the one it replaced was Is SH530-12
I'll need to remove it to have a look for markings as it tucked away behind the carbs and not visibly accessible.
Is there a way to test the RR with a multi meter?
 
Tah Rob, information helps in assessing the issue or issues in play, Stator noted as ND, the original RR is stock designation SH530-12 the subscript "12" indicates 12V nominal. That Shindengen has a regulation control sense wire, what i was indicating in the early part of this topic and ongoing posts. Never seen a failed SH530 yet, may happen to others, just not myself witnessed, say have had about 50+ SH530 go through here past decades. Me, i would refit the SH530, attach the brown wire or middle pin on the 6 pin plug ( body of RR ) opposite the row of three phase inputs, to the battery positive or outgoing RR +12 ( usually Red/White ) and retest with fully charged battery connected, idel rpm and 3Krpm. At this stage your chasing too many unknowns...let us know if you need further advice of worth yet to be determined....grin. **** there is an IIS alternator diagram of several variants in the library here for clear connections to SH530 and SH532
 
Thanks John, I appreciate your input. The SH530 does have 6 wires, besides the yellow alt. wires 1 to neg, one to battery+ and the 3rd to a positive that I can't remember but maybe ign switch, would have to follow its path to determined where. The replacement RR doesn't have that wire.
This is the wiring diag, I used to rewire the bike 10 years ago and so far has never caused any electrical issues.
I'll rewire in the old RR but to do that I'll also need to source the female pins to suit the new improved connector block Red supplied with the new RR. If you look at the photo I posted earlier you'll see that connector, not sure what it's called but if you know what it is let me know and I'll source some of those pins on line.
 

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That third wire to ignition switch is highly likely to be the root cause of your issues in regards to charger control. Disconnect and then reconnect it direct to the battery positive or RR +12 output wire as suggested last message. Defer on the new RR inspection at this time, stick with what i know and have used....HTH j.
 
Ok John will connect with the output wire to battery +
It'll have to wait a few days as house building stuff gets in the way.
I'll still need to source those f-male pins for that connector as the old RR had those crappy block connectors.
 
That could be a problem, sourcing compatible Shindengen RR plug, other than access to wreckers and GPZ/ZZR redundant harness and connectors....you can just use 6.3m/m standard fast on connectors and plug the individual spades onto the SH530, done that myself more than once, even with a misconnect possibility, the RR is robust, though care is best. Do if you must a proper pair of ratchet crimps ( constant pressure crimp ) with suitable 2,5 dies, not expensive these days, less than $40 from trade houses. Throw the pressed metal type in the bin or similar, hate those laughingly called crimping tool. Buy the fast on 6,3m/m while at the electrical wholesalers, should be better than the over counter at spares shops, you would hope....j
 
I brought a good crimping tool when I rewired the bike and have a good stock of brass 6mm spade connectors and silicone sheaves etc.
The plug Red sent with the RR is a Duetsch connector. Nice compared with those white crappy block type I used initially.
I'm fairly remote here, nearest wreckers 420kays, nearest largest town, Albany is 120kays and very limited with specialist bits and pieces, so everything I need comes via post. I'll order some of the Duetsch pins tomorrow, found a supplier in Qld. In the mean time I'll refit the old RR.
Still think it's the RR. The old one says it's charging 13.7, the new one says it isn't. Wiring may explain why it's only putting out 13.7 but there is not much wiring involved really. Will connect that 2nd wire direct to battery.

Yes Davo , very frustrating. It was working perfectly till I serviced the starter clutch and fitted new battery.
 
Hey Rob, here are the original wiring instructions for the 3ph RR as sent to me by Red years ago.

"Alternator wiring which are the 3 x yellow wires go to the plug installed on the cable coming from the Regulator. It does not matter which yellow goes where, as long as plug is connected with all the yellows in line. As in, 3 x yellows to 3 x yellows.
There are 3 other wires coming from the Regulator, Green lead is Earth and can be installed on a frame Earth or direct back to Battery.
White/Red wire is the main charge lead and goes to Positive side of Battery.
Last wire is the Red wire and is run to a live 12 volt wire.
This Red wire is the sensing circuit and must be connected to a live circuit or direct to the positive side of the Battery. Its purpose is to tell the Regulator when to restrict the charge being sent to the Battery through the Red/White wire. If the sensing circuit is not connected the Battery will see unregulated power feed of anything up to 19 volts and it will damage your Battery, blow Headlight bulbs, etc. With the sensing circuit connected you should record approx 14.7 volts at the Battery with the bike running."

I connected the sensing wire direct to the positive on the battery and it all works spot on. I had a look at your wiring diagram above earlier and could not figure out where the sensing wire was headed.
 
As an aside, the connectors that come with Ignitech boxes are unfortunate - my good crimps weren't doing it and resorted to my old foldover type pressed metal ones. If anything ever causes ignition failure failure it'll be the connector block into the Ingitech TCP1.
 
piranha-bro2 said:
As an aside, the connectors that come with Ignitech boxes are unfortunate - my good crimps weren't doing it and resorted to my old foldover type pressed metal ones. If anything ever causes ignition failure failure it'll be the connector block into the Ingitech TCP1.
Click to expand...
Indeed the standard crimp pliers for molex KK series pins are pressed metal frame, as the terminals are very small there is little to be gained in constant pressure crimps, save for pneumatic type factory press stands. As for the very common Fast On type flat and barrel connections the constant pressure ratchet tool is to be sort, over the slot crush action of pressed types. Of the very small type of electronic crimp tools, it is a two pass process, one to fold the insulation grab part and the smaller profile wire to flange actual electrical grade crimp section. There you go more information than would be found on DIY forums....j
 
Very time-consuming those miniature connectors, and they have to be uniform to fit into the block connector. I love the std brass crimp connectors with my fancy crimp tool - too easy!
 
Davo said:
Last wire is the Red wire and is run to a live 12 volt wire.
This Red wire is the sensing circuit and must be connected to a live circuit or direct to the positive side of the Battery. Its purpose is to tell the Regulator when to restrict the charge being sent to the Battery through the Red/White wire. If the sensing circuit is not connected the Battery will see unregulated power feed of anything up to 19 volts and it will damage your Battery, blow Headlight bulbs, etc. With the sensing circuit connected you should record approx 14.7 volts at the Battery with the bike running."

I connected the sensing wire direct to the positive on the battery and it all works spot on. I had a look at your wiring diagram above earlier and could not figure out where the sensing wire was headed.
Click to expand...
If by some quirk the sense wire is connected to a point in the wiring that does not see a constant true battery volts, and has a load on that wire connection, the sense wire will indeed see "low volts" and jack up the RR output voltage and charging current into the battery. An open sense wire ( dependent on internal circuit config ie pullup to internal control supply volts ) will shut down the output volts, though this is complex and you could see residual voltage at the RR output wire, dependent upon if a battery is connected and condition of that battery. Perhaps more information than requested, best option is to tie the sense wire to the battery positive potential, and wear the slow drain of some 2-5mA when the bike is not in use and battery left connected. j
 
O dear, memory dredge time. I vaguely remember meeting up with you John at Bowral but not at your place there, it was after you moved, I was having timing issues I think and that's where you found my flywheel had been loctited on but I might have a guess, I have no idea who did it as you originally fitted your whole system to my bike back then but it was well before the Kawasaki Altinator time, you were using your experimental regulator then I think and the extra standard winding that was originally used for engine spark and then converted to the battery charge. I also remember sometime later you also found those never seen to happen before nuts had come loose on the Kawasaki alternator on my bike and chopped up the wiring connections. That never seen stuff seemed back then to appear on my 3c a lot. When I was having regulator issues a year or so back Brett found something similar with THAT sensing wire on my bike and where it was fitted. This thread has some similarities, there may be something in changing regulators with different numbers of wires being missed. The last page gets specific.

Odd Charging Question

I had 5 regulators with me in the tankbag One dead Regulator!
laverdaforum.com laverdaforum.com
 
Bit hard to read your typeface on the diagram as it is blurred on my screen. I can see the two wires heading from the RR into the instrument cluster and assume one is the sensor wire but have no idea what the second would be. I also cannot see what they are connected to in the cluster. I would be more inclined to coneect the sensor to the battery or if you don't want the small drop from there while sitting idle, then connect the sensor to the positive feed coming out of your "Main" relay. Connection to the power from the relay should give the full voltage reading but only when the ignition is on and so no drain on the battery when the bike is sitting.
 
Yeah Davo, pretty sure that wire goes back to the lgn switch on the diagram. That other wire is the gen light that is no longer revelant as the RR doesn't have that feature. You'll count 7 wire when there are only 6. That sensing wire on the Motodd connects direct to the battery via the fuse box.
I just wired in the old RR again, connected that sense wire direct to battery and got the same results 13.7v @ 3k.
Bear in mind that the Alt, RR and associated wiring has worked perfectly for 8 years since the rebuild.
The new RR was putting out 14.3-5v after fitting it and worked perfectly on the trip to Dumbleyung and back.
Now it show zero output at the battery. It really can only be the Alternator or RR. As the stator has been off while doing the starter clutch there is the slight possibility the wires could have been damaged down that end but highly unlikely as I take care in handling it and support it with a wire rather than let it hang off the loom.
Why does the old RR only put out 13.7 when it use to show well into the 14v mark.
Wish I had another RR to compare with.
 
Mmmmmm at the risk of scattering the problem, the multimeter used for tests, internal battery is fresh? Some DMM read low if the 9V battery is low, just an idle thought. Another one, if blade style ( think you said 25A ) fuse and holder, the fuse is not cracked is it? The no name items can fatigue crack at the bendy bit ( technical term i will have you know ) to external blade to holder, put your meter on audible mode and wiggle the blades in diode test. Use croc clips or what have you. Know shots in the dark, yet simple things are quick to do and rule out. The fault is telling you where it is, just not loud enough to hear it.... j
 
How about this John
New RR, meter between
Output wire and neg battery, + not connected was showing 15v
Touch the wire to the battery + and and it goes back to battery voltage
No output. Does measuring between output wire and neg battery tell me anything.
I understand basic wiring but technical im fucked
 
So many variables now Rob, it will be difficult without other test equipment ( amp meter, battery load tester etc ) to get a handle on what the issues are on the electrical system. Taking a lot of effort in remote diagnoses, ie less effective use of time. May well be time to make use of technical proficiency at the bike, going to step back. Your doing many of the correct techniques, just not bringing a known path to rectification. Used to have an old magic wand prop i would wave over a problem.... no that did not work, have to try the non magic process. j
 
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