Eu U-turn on petrol cars

[Paul Marx]

It's the sheer cost of the things along with the restricted range that I think is slowing the take up. Lots of talk on here about Tesla and 4x4's etc which I imagine cost 30 or 40k. Well an awful lot of people have to deal in the £1500 to £3000 range and they simply do not have the money to go electric even if they wanted to.

They'll have to be subsidised with public money.
Public money has been helping private enterprise for decades.

As for the rest, the main argument for EVs is the air we breathe.
Otherwise, they like all vehicles are part of a consumer chain the object of which is to keep money flowing. Repairability has been a very secondary consideration for a long time. Repairability is an impairment to cash flow. Repairability is one of the reasons I ride Laverda motorcycles.
The cost of a product nowadays is next to nil, including EV batteries. What you pay for is design, manpower for a very small part, transport and recycling. Not to mention the stock market.

Most of us are dinosaurs.

The only way out, apart from a major war, is public transport.

Paul

 

[Perry]

Will they last long enough to be the old nail that just manages to squeak through its mot though Lothar ? Do the makers want them to last long enough to become the equivalent of the current low end second hand market ?

As to range I agree the majority of trips are short but like the droves of adventure bike riders who never actually go long distances, a lot of car drivers like to think they could if they wanted to.

 

[Paul Marx]

Perry, I understand that and you are right. But those are not the customers for new cars, they most probably will buy and use cars that are 10+ years old. EV's will come into that range in the next 5 - 8 years. Cheaper cars come on the market for those now like the iD Polo (shall be around 25.000€ and is the size of a A1 Audi or the Corsa EV). For single or dual person transport, this is more than enough. Maybe not for a family with dog, that's clear. We have even people around here that buy their kids electric cars that can be driven at the age of 16 (normal cars from 18). They are also good for elderly people or singles for local transportation:

E-Auto Kleinwagen M-Bai 3kW bis 45km/h – ElektroBest.de

elektrobest.de

My wife f.e. only drives 10km a day, 5 each way to her work. this would be an ideal transportation for her, as for longer distances or vacations, we do have the Model Y.

Regarding range, which is one of the most used counter-"argument":

Over here, the average daily commute for 95% of the cars is less than 30 kilometers. Das that sound like a range issue to you? Factually, the argument focusses the very rare exceptions instead of the majority of the transportations. Ask yourself: how many times of the year do you drive more than 300km/200 Miles a day? And now imagine, you simply park your car at home and re-charge it - just like you do with your cell-phone every night, right?

For the rare cases that travel longer distances, EV might not be the right choice if done under time pressure. For vacation times: we have people on the forum that pulled a trailor down to Portugal's south coast, which is roughly 2.700km from their home. Yes, took some time, but they simply enjoyed the journey. We have lots of people that travel throughout europe with no or minor issues. Range is a frequently, but very weak argument, at least where I am located or for the above average commute...

Oh - and how many miles can you put on one tank full of your bike? Is anyone moaning about having to refill it every 200km/130 miles? No, right, because it's simply normal and you plan those regular stops in. Why is it a problem to recharge your car every 400km/250 Miles, please?

Just some food for thoughts...

Same here Lothar. the average car does 10km a day or thereabouts.
It's about time that some people realised that we are nearing 8 and a 1/2 billion on earth and that it's urgent that we think global.
One of my brothers in law drives 200km a day for work, in an electric car. He also uses it for long trips. As he says, you don't stop to fill up, you fill up when you stop. Same goes for one of my sons with his Tesla.
You can cross Europe in an EV today without further ado, including on secondary roads.
The only brake to the development of EVs today is political and the pressure of private interests.

Paul

 

[Paul Marx]

Will they last long enough to be the old nail that just manages to squeak through its mot though Lothar ? Do the makers want them to last long enough to become the equivalent of the current low end second hand market ?

As to range I agree the majority of trips are short but like the droves of adventure bike riders who never actually go long distances, a lot of car drivers like to think they could if they wanted to.

Of course not. Companies that make cars, make them to sell. Or eventually for them to be stolen and sent of to distant lands. The insurers will help sell a new vehicle.
Keeps the producers and insurers happy.

Paul

 

[Andy J]

I bought my first EV (ex-demo Nissan Leaf) partly for environmental reasons but mostly because it was cheaper to run than an ICE alternative - lots of free charge points, the insurance was the same and the road tax was virtually nothing.
However, that hasn't lasted. No more free electricity at public charge points, the 'charge' is now too high so I don't use them. In the last couple of years the insurance costs either went through the roof or you found your insurer had pulled out of the market. This was mostly down to the issue of not being able to repair or transport off island a crash damaged EV. The number of garages that will service an EV is limited and road tax is creeping up, but at least we haven't got a 'mileage' charge yet.
So many of the advantages of owning an EV on the IOM are being eroded and other than I quite liked the driving experience there is not much incentive to buy another currently.

 

[Laverdalothar]

Will they last long enough to be the old nail that just manages to squeak through its mot though Lothar ? Do the makers want them to last long enough to become the equivalent of the current low end second hand market ?

As to range I agree the majority of trips are short but like the droves of adventure bike riders who never actually go long distances, a lot of car drivers like to think they could if they wanted to.

your cell-phone, your TV, even your heating at home - none of them are made these days to last centuries. The oil-heating my father's house had was "upgraded" with a gas-burner in the 70's and fully replaced in the 80's with a gas heater. That one lasted roughly 38 years and wasn't replaced because it was defect, it was replaced because you could not get spare parts for the service anymore. The following one causes problems over problems - and burns the same amount of gas, though our winters get warmer and warmer. No one complains...

For the range argumentation: yes, exactly true. We buy cars to cover every possible aspect of potential usage. I had a discussion way back with a guy that sold a 750 Formula (black/orange) that was claimed to be from Nicolas Caige. He was US based, had horses etc. etc. and drove a 9 seater car. I asked him how many times he had used it for more than two people. "Never. But if I would have to pick up people from the airport and with luggage etc. - this is what I need!" - So - how many times did you do that since you have it? "Never. But I could!"

I thought about going smaller with my car when I bought it, coming from the very spacy A6. I am glad I did not, as I regularely have to transport things around and use the space (not only once a year for the christmas-tree, I promise!! ). My wife has a Mini, I would love to buy here a smaller EV car. She refuses, not because of long distance drives, just because she loves the Mini and it has only covered 60.000km in its 16 years...

 

[Laverdalothar]

I bought my first EV (ex-demo Nissan Leaf) partly for environmental reasons but mostly because it was cheaper to run than an ICE alternative - lots of free charge points, the insurance was the same and the road tax was virtually nothing.
However, that hasn't lasted. No more free electricity at public charge points, the 'charge' is now too high so I don't use them. In the last couple of years the insurance costs either went through the roof or you found your insurer had pulled out of the market. This was mostly down to the issue of not being able to repair or transport off island a crash damaged EV. The number of garages that will service an EV is limited and road tax is creeping up, but at least we haven't got a 'mileage' charge yet.
So many of the advantages of owning an EV on the IOM are being eroded and other than I quite liked the driving experience there is not much incentive to buy another currently.

downside of living on an island, I understand that Andy. And as I said: It might be that EV's are not for everyones personal situation. However, I am pretty sure that 95 - 98% of all people would be better off with them. And if that would happen, there would be ways for you, too, to have one again. 2 years ago, there was no repair shop for batteries I know of other than one in Croatia, which is 1.500km away from me. Meanwhile there are 3. When I bought the Tesla 4+ years ago, I was the first owner of an EV car in my street (plus 2 hybrids). Meanwhile roughly 25% of all cars in my street are EV's or plug-in hybrids. From 50 house-owners here roughly, more than half of them have meanwhile solar panels on their roof, most of them also a wallbox to charge the car.

It is a different situation though in big cities and when you live in a rental flat with no garage. not sure if I would currently buy an EV then, as that means no charging over night but charging-stops of 20 Minutes at least 1-2 per week. Plenty of public charging stations over here though, no problem. But in Cologne f.e., they are still rare... and you need to disconnect after the car is full, otherwise you pay a blocking fee... No-one wants to get up at 3:00 a.m. to unplug and move the car. Solutions are coming with new "charging curbs" for pavements https://www.rheinmetall.com/de/produkte/e-mobilitaet/ladeinfrastruktur/ladebordstein

As Paul rightly said: we are all old-feshinoned and we love it. I want to remain open for new technologies though. New technologies are never perfect in the beginning, but they can be made perfect, if enough people get the point and buy them. The first iPhone was - compared to the current ones - total crap. But it helped finance the development of the next one and so on...

 

[Paul Marx]

For the range argumentation: yes, exactly true. We buy cars to cover every possible aspect of potential usage. I had a discussion way back with a guy that sold a 750 Formula (black/orange) that was claimed to be from Nicolas Caige. He was US based, had horses etc. etc. and drove a 9 seater car. I asked him how many times he had used it for more than two people. "Never. But if I would have to pick up people from the airport and with luggage etc. - this is what I need!" - So - how many times did you do that since you have it? "Never. But I could!"

More and more town dwelling people don't own a car nowadays. Town dwellers are currently more than half of humanity. They rent a car when needed.
Much more budget friendly than owning and takes up less space in town that can be put to better use than parking a vehicle only rarely used.
Paul

 

[pf1]

I was trying to think of noticeable ways the environment has improved in the UK. I would say the air quality is far better than when I was a kid but in other areas we have gone backwards. I don't think EV's have made much of a contribution, stopping the widespread use of coal fires, cleaning up diesel engines and exporting our heavy industry emissions have done most of the work. Actual quality of life has gone into reverse though in my opinion.

 

[Andy J]

Don’t worry, when Reform get into power things will improve - just like they did after Brexit!

 

[rocketonarail]

Don’t worry, when Reform get into power things will improve - just like they did after Brexit!

Apparently when Reform come to power in 2027 , they are going to end all government subsidy of wind farms , solar farms etc ...... which would lead to lower electricity bills in theory ........ No more " green crap " levy , as David Cameron once described it ...... except since we seem to be 70 - 80% dependent on renewables nowadays , I`m not sure of what the outcome of that might be , except even higher bills .........

Small Modular Reactors are still some way off ........ US based Westinghouse were in the running for these , and were a bit miffed when the contract was awarded to Rolls Royce .......

Not worried about removing taxpayer support for solar farms though ......... there`s a giant one planned for west Wiltshire , which would cover all the fields between Sherston right down to Hullavington ..... ( an area of 20 square miles ) ... in 4.5 metre high silicon panels .....

No more food production , arable , or grazing anymore if that goes through , never mind the loss of visual amenity and industrialisation of vast swathes the countryside ..........

........ Just the lining of the pockets of the Australian investment corporation ( Macquarie ) who are behind it ................ Green or Greed ?

 

[Ian Short]

Apparently when Reform come to power in 2027 , they are going to end all government subsidy of wind farms , solar farms etc ...... which would lead to lower electricity bills in theory ........ No more " green crap " levy , as David Cameron once described it ...... except since we seem to be 70 - 80% dependent on renewables nowadays , it difficult to see what the outcome of that would be , except even higher bills .........

Small Modular Reactors are still some way off ........ US based Westinghouse were in the running for these , and were a bit miffed when the contract was awarded to Rolls Royce .......

Not worried about removing taxpayer support for solar farms though ......... there`s a giant once planned for west Wiltshire , which would cover all the fields between Sherston right down to Hullavington ..... ( an area of 20 square miles ) ... in 4.5 metre high silicon panels .....

No more food production , arable , or grazing anymore if that goes through .......... Just the lining of the pockets of an Australian investment corporation .......... Green or Greed ?

We have four small modulars being installed at the Darlington Nuclear Generating station just east of Toronto and that's going on right now. I just sent a text over to a friend to see if he can share some site photos and if you are interested I can post provided that he can share anything.

Darlington already has 4 Candu ractors and the modulars will be supplemental and are made by GE Hitachi. They are also in process of refurbing Candu Reactor #4. The Candu's big selling point aside from using non enriched uranium is that it can be fueled on the fly. (power on)

All of my nuclear clearances have recently lapsed but I have about 80 jumps into Candu Reactors during my time at the Bruce Nuclear Facility during the refurb of Bruce A Reactors 1 & 2.

I've also been involved in some wind turbine installations........ pretty sure that we're not going to get there on wind or solar alone.

If we want green electricity nuke is the way to go...... but it's expensive.

I've attached a pic of me in front of Reactor 2's Calandria.

PS - As an a point of interest to the UK crowd all of the steam turbines at the Bruce Nuclear Facility are Parsons.

 

[rocketonarail]

Regarding expense , the projected cost of a Rolls Royce SMR is £ 2 billion .......... compared to the much larger Sizewell C projected £22 billion cost ......... although the SMR output is about one sixth of something like Sizewell .

It looks like several SMR`s located at various locations around the country is the governments preferred option for a reliable , carbon free electricity supply into the future ....... presumably replacing ( to all intents and purposes ) the larger scale but unpredictable wind and solar renewables , when they reach the end of their 25 year lifespan ........

There is a problem in the UK at the moment harnessing northern off shore wind energy and transporting it down south to where it is needed , due to lack of infrastructure .... ( pylons and battery storage ) ............. to the extent that those offshore wind turbines tend to be stood idle when they are most needed .......... ( the national grid can`t cope ) ............

I guess a mix of " local " SMR `s , together with full size reactors such as Sizewell and Hinckley Point , plus smaller scale " neighbourhood " wind and solar will by pass that problem ....... although it looks like the hundreds of miles of pylons running down through the east of the country to serve London and the South East will still need to be constructed in the meantime ........

 

[Laverdalothar]

Apparently when Reform come to power in 2027 , they are going to end all government subsidy of wind farms , solar farms etc ...... which would lead to lower electricity bills in theory ........ No more " green crap " levy , as David Cameron once described it ...... except since we seem to be 70 - 80% dependent on renewables nowadays , I`m not sure of what the outcome of that might be , except even higher bills .........

Small Modular Reactors are still some way off ........ US based Westinghouse were in the running for these , and were a bit miffed when the contract was awarded to Rolls Royce .......

Not worried about removing taxpayer support for solar farms though ......... there`s a giant one planned for west Wiltshire , which would cover all the fields between Sherston right down to Hullavington ..... ( an area of 20 square miles ) ... in 4.5 metre high silicon panels .....

No more food production , arable , or grazing anymore if that goes through , never mind the loss of visual amenity and industrialisation of vast swathes the countryside ..........

........ Just the lining of the pockets of the Australian investment corporation ( Macquarie ) who are behind it ................ Green or Greed ?

Oh wow, sorry, but I am not sure where you take your information from...

This is a chart comparing the real cost of energy production, it is from 2024:



You can read the according research here:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/EN2024_ISE_Study_Levelized_Cost_of_Electricity_Renewable_Energy_Technologies.pdf

and Nuke is no alternative for me. We don't have any permanent storage facilities yet in Europe for the nuklear waste that are really safe, we can not burdan thousands of future generations!

Green power like wind, water, solar are cheaper, produce less future problems and make you independant of any fashist regieme. The problem of green energy is not the possibility to produce enough, it is a question of storing and distributing it properly. And change things to make use of it when it is sufficiently available.

Hinkley Point C is a catastrophy in terms of economics. it is by far the most expensive power plant compared to the energy it can produce and will cost the tax payers billions of dollars to pay for the cost. Investors jumped off that sinking boat 2023 I think already...

New "battery"-alike systems can store energy from offshore windparks very easily:

Fraunhofer IEE and Partners Test Spherical Energy Storage on the Seabed off the Californian Coast

The Fraunhofer Institute for Energy Economics and Energy System Technology IEE has developed an underwater energy storage system that transfers the principle of pumped storage power plants to the seabed. After a successful field test with a smaller model in Lake Constance, the researchers are...

www.iee.fraunhofer.de

This is cheap, effective and together with according power-lines can solve a lot of problems. As you said: currently windmills have to stand still because we can not make use of the energy. This means we produce already more than we need, but can't store it. It is cynicle to think that we need more/other power plants when we can make use of the existing capacities way better with cheap storages like the above mentioned spherical or concrete storage systems.

 

[Ian Short]

Regarding expense , the projected cost of a Rolls Royce SMR is £ 2 billion .......... compared to the much larger Sizewell C projected £22 billion cost ......... although the SMR output is about one sixth of something like Sizewell .

It looks like several SMR`s located at various locations around the country is the governments preferred option for a reliable , carbon free electricity supply into the future ....... presumably replacing ( to all intents and purposes ) the larger scale but unpredictable wind and solar renewables , when they reach the end of their 25 year lifespan ........

There is a problem in the UK at the moment connecting northern off shore wind energy and transporting it down south to where it is needed , due to lack of infrastructure ...... ( pylons and battery storage ) ............. to the extent that on and off shore wind turbines tend to be stood idle when they are most needed .......... ( the national grid can`t cope ) ............

I guess a mix of " local " SMR `s , together with full size reactors such as Sizewell and Hinckley Point , plus smaller scale " neighbourhood " wind and solar will by pass that problem ....... although it looks like the hundreds of miles of pylons running down through the east of the country to serve London and the South East will still need to be constructed in the meantime ........

Quoted cost for all four SMR's at Darlington is around 11b Stirling with a premium placed on the first one "as it's never been done before".

The response I received via the SMR project photos was "I have not bothered to take any as it's just a muddy hole".

I have asked for some decent pics of the Candu 4 upgrade at Darlington and can post if there is interest once I receive them.

I'm not a huge proponent of wind or solar.......not fussy on looking at mile after mile of turbines and it doesn't offer the same energy density as nuclear.

I'd like to see small scale hydro electric utilized more than it is at the present time, but one of the problems is the costs vs energy generated isn't favourable. The general idea being that any river or stream that had a textile or grist mill in the past has the ability to generate electricity using an impeller and 3 phase motor. The output is usually just a few homes or perhaps a few blocks depending on conditions which makes each installation site specific. Not an ideal way to garner the best bang for the buck.

Transmission and distribution is a subject that I won't go near. I've listened to people who know what they're talking about discuss it, and as near as I can tell there is some sort of wizardry involved.

 

[rocketonarail]

Oh wow, sorry, but I am not sure where you take your information from...

This is a chart comparing the real cost of energy production, it is from 2024:

View attachment 101308

You can read the according research here:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/EN2024_ISE_Study_Levelized_Cost_of_Electricity_Renewable_Energy_Technologies.pdf

It`s nothing to do with the cost of energy production from various sources now .........

It`s planning for a dependable source of energy supply for the future that the current UK government is concerned with ....... The unit price of various sources of energy in July 2024 will be completely irrelevant in 30 - 40 years time .

The aim is to secure a reliable energy supply which isn`t dependant , as certain European countries are , on the importation of Russian oil for example ......... If that increases our energy bills in the short term , then don`t worry ....... it will pay dividends in the long run , as our Energy Secretary Ed Miliband never tires of telling us .......... whilst at the same time refusing new North Sea oil exploration licences .... a symptom of his eco - zealot blindness , but then no one`s perfect I guess ............

A SMR can be constructed at a fraction of the cost of a full scale nuclear reactor ....... ( around one tenth of the cost ) ........ a mix of SMR`s plus community wind and solar projects are the way forward ......... We may even end up in a position where we no longer have to import nuclear energy from Northern France ............ a bit of an energy cost saving there , no doubt .................

 

[Ian Short]

Oh wow, sorry, but I am not sure where you take your information from...

This is a chart comparing the real cost of energy production, it is from 2024:

View attachment 101308

You can read the according research here:

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/EN2024_ISE_Study_Levelized_Cost_of_Electricity_Renewable_Energy_Technologies.pdf

and Nuke is no alternative for me. We don't have any permanent storage facilities yet in Europe for the nuklear waste that are really safe, we can not burdan thousands of future generations!

Green power like wind, water, solar are cheaper, produce less future problems and make you independant of any fashist regieme. The problem of green energy is not the possibility to produce enough, it is a question of storing and distributing it properly. And change things to make use of it when it is sufficiently available.

Hinkley Point C is a catastrophy in terms of economics. it is by far the most expensive power plant compared to the energy it can produce and will cost the tax payers billions of dollars to pay for the cost. Investors jumped off that sinking boat 2023 I think already...

New "battery"-alike systems can store energy from offshore windparks very easily:

Fraunhofer IEE and Partners Test Spherical Energy Storage on the Seabed off the Californian Coast

The Fraunhofer Institute for Energy Economics and Energy System Technology IEE has developed an underwater energy storage system that transfers the principle of pumped storage power plants to the seabed. After a successful field test with a smaller model in Lake Constance, the researchers are...

www.iee.fraunhofer.de

This is cheap, effective and together with according power-lines can solve a lot of problems. As you said: currently windmills have to stand still because we can not make use of the energy. This means we produce already more than we need, but can't store it. It is cynicle to think that we need more/other power plants when we can make use of the existing capacities way better with cheap storages like the above mentioned spherical or concrete storage systems.

Just to put it on the record........ NO, Zero, Nada, Zilch, Zip, spent fuel rods from the Bruce Nuclear Facility have ever left the site. The Bruce Nuclear site is the largest nuclear generation site in the world. All of the spent fuel from the 8 Candu reactors is stored on site in a repository. Effectively it is a swimming pool approx the size of an olympic pool and all of the spent fuel is safely contained under a metre of water.

That's close to 40 years of nuclear energy and the waste hasn't even filled an olympic swimming pool.

Hasn't Germany resorted to refiring up their coal power plants again?

 

[rocketonarail]

I'd like to see small scale hydro electric utilized more than it is at the present time, but one of the problems is the costs vs energy generated isn't favourable. The general idea being that any river or stream that had a textile or grist mill in the past has the ability to generate electricity using an impeller and 3 phase motor. The output is usually just a few homes or perhaps a few blocks depending on conditions which makes each installation site specific. Not an ideal way to garner the best bang for the buck.

I live next to the Severn Estuary , which has the second highest tidal range in the world ........ ( Number one is somewhere in China ..... trust them ........ ) .

Inevitably the issue of a tidal barrage comes up , fades away , and then comes back again .... ( a bit like the tide really .... ) .......

The subject of cost and who would build it usually puts an end to this dreaming ......... plus migratory sea creature concerns , never mind the fact it would put an end to the antics of the surfer dudes who like to ride the " Severn Bore " .........

They talk about putting a road over the top of it if it were ever built ...... then charge a toll to recoup some of the investment costs ......... but seeing there are two Severn Bridges already in existence , and at least one is toll free , that probably wouldn`t work very well .......

I quite like the idea though ..... maybe one day .............



BTW ,,,,, Completely unrelated ......... It seems there are remains of tropical rainforest in the seabed of the Estuary ........ a leftover from the days when north west Europe used to be down where South America is now ....... so they say ..............

 

[Ian Short]

So i assume you don't fly anymore, you don't ride Motorcycles (as that is much more dangerous when it goes wrong than driving a car, too), you don't use cell phones or any other battery holding device, right?

This is pure panic creating, missleading information regarding the fires.

The main point for car manufactureres to be against electric cars is simply: the value chain is outside of their factory and the dealers can't ripp you off on every service, because there is almost none necessary.

Follow the money and you'll see what drives their decisions...

And what is wrong with reducing the number of fires in a car bei over 90%? You confused the arguments here a bit...

Oh I suppose I ought to reply.

Don't fly much at all these days....... fixed wing aircraft I'm fine with but I prefer to limit my time in rotary winged aircraft.

I do ride motrocycles and enjoy it immensely.

Try not to use a cell anymore than needed........ not due to an aversion to technology but more misanthropic in nature

Whether or not you care to acknowledge the potential hazards of a lithium ion battery pac that powers a car changes nothing....... it is a possibilty that needs to be considered. Panic inducing or misleading..... not likely.

And the great thing is......because you drive an EV that means I don't have to, so thank you.

EV's don't work for a great number of people in the country in which I reside........ I'm not going to inconvenience myself or put myself at a financial disadvantage until there is a viable alternative. To clarify I feel that hybrids are an excellent alternative..... as I've related in my previous anecdotes.

Follow the money........ I have been, and the green grift around CO2 is staggering. Turning CO2 into a fiat currency....... fucking brilliant, I'm just bitter that I couldn't cash in on it.

 

[Ian Short]

I live next to the Severn Estuary , which has the second highest tidal range in the world ........ ( Number one is somewhere in China ..... trust them ........ ) .

Inevitably the issue of a tidal barrage comes up , fades away , and then comes back again .... ( a bit like the tide really .... ) .......

The subject of cost and who would build it usually puts an end to this dreaming ......... plus migratory sea creature concerns , never mind the fact it would put an end to the antics of the surfer dudes who like to ride the " Severn Bore " .........

They talk about putting a road over the top of it if it were ever built ...... then charge a toll to recoup some of the investment costs ......... but seeing there are two Severn Bridges already in existence , and at least one is toll free , that probably wouldn`t work very well .......

I quite like the idea though ..... maybe one day .............



BTW ,,,,, Completely unrelated ......... It seems there are remains of tropical rainforest in the seabed of the Estuary ........ a leftover from the days when north west Europe used to be down where South America is now ....... so they say ..............

I believe there have been discussions on tidal generators on the Bay of Fundy in New Brunswick..... not sure how that has been progressing.

I believe at one time there was a department store in New York City that generated it's power from tidal generation.

I could stand to be corrected on that.

As per Google:

• The Gristedes supermarket

This initial test phase successfully operated for nearly two years, producing about 50 megawatt-hours of electricity and demonstrating the viability of tidal power in an urban setting.