This bloody bike. 1976 3CE

After spending a long time wondering about in the Laverda world it's best to use reliable Laverda shops, are you anywhere near Jed I forget his last name in England, I have heard good things about him. A second opinion would be prudent. I could tell my tale of woe when I first bought my 3c, freshly rebuilt by a very confident IMBASILE. I hope your experience changes, they are fantastic when put together by experienced hands, but sadly some are not. It's a shame they don't try brain surgery on themselves before fucking about on Laverdas.
 
I thank those with kind words but what really pisses me is that the bike was bought from a well known name in the Laverda community who I’ve bought parts from in the past for the 500. I assumed I could trust him.
And no, I won’t name him, but I hope he is ashamed.
 
I remember you saying it ran ok at first, How long did it run ok for "at first"? If he's that well known why did you not go back to him about it when it turned out to be a liability.
 
Rokka said:
I remember you saying it ran ok at first, How long did it run ok for "at first"? If he's that well known why did you not go back to him about it when it turned out to be a liability.
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Well if you read above you will see that I said it wouldn’t rev over 5000 rpm on the first ride, I believe they should be capable of 7,500. It ticked over on his drive “ok - at first”. As I said I knew him and trusted him. How wrong was I?
I did contact him and the response was “Lots of complaints there Robin , it won best bike award in 2013” which means nothing. It won an award as the bike was unusual, it was thrashed to Italy and back and then sat in a garage for 11 years until I bought it.
 
100 isn't no compression. it's lower than it should be but ( if that figure is true, no 2nd opinion had yet I assume ) should ( all else being functional ) still start and run on all three. Unlikely the compression has nosedived since you've taken ownership unless you've done something you're not telling us, so the compression that took you out on that "wouldn't rev over 5000" ride should still be extant. With compression of 100 on all three it would normally rev over 5000 in 1st or 2nd so if it wouldn't that still points the finger at ignition or carbs as well. In the same way that having paranoia doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you, the identification of one possible fault doesn't automatically rule out any others. It's Unlikely the valve seats would be burned all equally, or the head gasket would leak equally close to all three cylinders, if you're losing comp equally on all three that would usually be bore wear that could result in excessive oil and wind out of the breather, it could be the reason for your oily foot if it's split or not connected properly, as a rule most breathers recycle through the airbox but you don't have the std. airbox fitted I believe, so what's on yours, where's it exhausting to and at what rate? could be a clue: But doesn't mean your carbs are great, your timing is excellent and your wiring is in top condition.
 
If it has no compression it would rev in the lower gears where the high power is not necessary.
If it does not rev in any gear it will be the ignition.
Normally in the first gear it would rev up to 8000 with just a litle lift of the carbs. So my question is, does it not rev at all - ignition!
Andre
 
andre g said:
If it has no compression it would rev in the lower gears where the high power is not necessary.
If it does not rev in any gear it will be the ignition.
Normally in the first gear it would rev up to 8000 with just a litle lift of the carbs. So my question is, does it not rev at all - ignition!
Andre
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This.
I wouldn’t lose hope yet. There was obviously a bit of truth-stretching in the sales process but maybe the guts of the machine are better than you think.
I hope so anyway…

Reading your story makes me very thankful that my Lav, bought sight-unseen, from a reasonably well known Laverda bloke, turned out to be exactly as advertised!
 
Hi Robin, I’m a little late in reading of the frustrations you are having with your 3CE. When I read the recent postings my thoughts are cam timing. I went back through some of the earlier posts I also read Ian D suggested the cam timing might be a tooth out. However I didn’t notice any follow up to this suggestion. Your comments do ring a bell with similar issues I’ve come across in the past. It just doesn’t tally that the bike could be ridden to Italy and back by the Seller. I don’t know for certain who the seller was but I just can’t see him selling a bike running in the current condition. Your.video clip from last September shows the bike on fast idle and not responding to the throttle I suspect it’s just running on choke and the subsequent attempt to run under load was fruitless. Again, cam timing?

Has the cam chain been split to adjust the valve clearances? The other point to mention is you state the bike is a 3CE? Has it got factory 4/c stamped cams and the correct sprockets? It was more common than you think for A11 cams to be reprofiled with 4/c or 7/c lobes. In these situations you can never trust the scribe marks on the sprockets and always measure your valve timing at max valve lift. In any case I would recommend that you check or have the valve timing checked using a dial gauge and not against the scribe marks. If you are not confident in doing this then even getting your hands on a pair of A11 cams and A11 sprockets may prove worthwhile in narrowing down the problem. It’s too premature to write your engine off.
HTH
 
There seems to be a fare few here who want to shift blame, discount what I say and post their theory on a bike they have not seen.
It’s not helpful.
If you have read, and remember, the whole story you would know there have been multiple things not right with this bike.
It ran and reved on the sellers drive but it was not under load. I knew him therefore trusted that the bike was good to go and in my opinion just needed a smarten up.
I got it home and took it for a ride. It would it pull over 5000 rpm on a dual carriage way. Probably a the carbs need sorting I thought. I pulled it apart.
Six weeks later it’s back together but pops and farts. As we know the ignition wiring deteriorates and Rup’s Rewires recommended I buy an Ignitech from the factory.
I took it for a run as my neighbour moans about the noise, it left me stranded and the side of the road for three hours whilst I was rescued.
People on here tell me it’s the Ignitech. Lots of back and forth with Ignitech and the issue of me owning a Mac not a PC. I send the bike to a professional bike electrician who can not get it sorted but injures his arm and has the bike for six weeks. I go and collect it.
Ignitech tell me it’s not running on no.2. Lots of suggestions on here, taking apart of wiring loom and replacing coils, RR, plugs and caps, It still pops and farts and shoots flames.
After a suggestion on here I look at the ignition cam on the end of the crank. Due any combination of being thrashed up and down European motorways, lack of maintainance, old age and sitting in a garage for 11 years the grub screw is not tight and the cam spins independently of the crank. I try to tighten the grub screw but on inspection it’s split in half. Buy a new one - the bike starts.
Take it for a run but it won’t rev out.
Take the carbs off, clean out again, buy more bits from DucatiPaddy. Still won’t run right. Slides are scored and the operating arms of the carbs are twisted. Straighten as best as I can. Pilot screw is 2.5 turns out - set at 1.5 - no improvement. Slide levels are up and down all over the place, get it as good as I can but run out of adjustment. The trusted mechanic the bike is with now says they are still not right and need sorting.
Bike won’t start on one cylinder and more investigations the blame is the Lego block connectors under the tank - I replaced.
Take it for a run and I’m hopeful. No, it won’t run over 3000 rpm and I think it could be the cheapo K&N copy filters are holding it back.
Through out this process above I’ve been buying and fitting four ignition backing plates from around the world trying to get it running right. It hasn’t been running on no 2. That is why I’ve been trying to get a correctly functioning backing plate.
Currently got one in from Red’s parts bin and some days it run’s on three, other days on two. Replaced the plugs and caps again but still won’t rev out when ridden. I have a very nicely rewired backing plate in reserve from Wolfgang and have given it to the bike shop to use if they need it. I believe the current backing pate from Red is good as there is now problems getting reliable spark at cylinder 1 or 3, not both together but individually, when it feels like it. So the ignition is working as otherwise it wouldn’t run on both 1 & 3 at the same time.
Give up, and that’s why it went to the bike shop it currently is at. He says he will look at it on the 3rd March. Illness amongst his staff it gets put off 10 days and now I’m told the compression is poor and the carbs are in bad condition and out of sync. Who knows what the head, valves and guides will be like.
I’ve given him permission to get the head and barrels off this week and for us to get an idea as to what has to be done. Looks like a long list of parts to Wolfgang.

Guys - this has been a long and painful process for me, I have done my best to get it sorted so far but taken it to a guy who knows what he’s doing for his help. Those who post encouragement are helpful. Those that criticise - you said this, you said that, are not being of help. People who have only read half the thread post suggestions that have been looked into many times six months before.
It’s in the hands of someone who should be able to sort it as I’ve had enough. I bought a bike that does not match what the seller made it out to be.
 
3 bikes were modified here in Sydney in the 1990s after the original was seen to perform really well. Included in those 3 was mine. Mine ran like crap the other 2 went well with the same mods. For a good 6 months, it got constantly mucked with and had the same results, barely starting and it would run past 5k. One of the mods was CV carbs with plastic slides. On one ride the bike stopped 200ks from home after MELTING those plastic slides. It did not matter what anyone said, plenty smarter than me, It obviously was one tooth out allowing combustion gasses to get at the slides. A bit later a case stud got pulled, which was an even longer story resulting in a year of BS and replacement cases. BTW another symptom of being one tooth out is low compression, odd cam timing allowing combustion to escape when it shouldn't. I have no idea who your new mechanic is, maybe he knows his stuff but Laverdas might be simple but they also need some specific experts. That's why I mentioned that Ged bloke, one of the Oz blokes shipped a bike from Oz for a back-to-the-factory ride and had rear spoke issues, fixed no problem with him. I know having bike issues is a giant pain, so good luck with yours.
 
Odd problems, rode with this bike to Italy and back and many many times locally, it was always criticised for it"s colour, (by another previous owner) but all the time I knew this bike (for over 8 years), it never missed a beat,
 
You've certainly been thru the wringer and I can sympathize after dealing w/ my 750. I encourage you to work on the carbs yourself since it's doable, and it will save you time and money, and you'll know it's done right. If the slides are scored and the pump arms are bent, that will affect the idle, along w/ all the other carb internals and synching, etc. Get the full Dell Orto rebuild kit and replace everything, including the cables if needed. I found that proper functioning carbs are crucial. This carb synching PDF should also be helpful and you'll just need to get carb stix if you don't have them. Good luck
 

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Robin Webster said:
There seems to be a fare few here who want to shift blame, discount what I say and post their theory on a bike they have not seen.
It’s not helpful.
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I understand that you're frustrated, but getting pissed-off at people who are only trying to help (even if misguided) is unlikely to benefit your cause. Just take a deep breath and exercise a bit of tolerance for those of us who aren't quite as focussed on your bike as you are yourself. None of us have the bike in front of us, which makes diagnosis a bit of a guessing game.

On the subject of effective communication, you seem to have ignored a couple of suggestions yourself. Specifically, those to check the camshaft (aka valve) timing. The first person to suggest that was Ian D way back at post #65. You dismissed his suggestion by referring him back to your post #59 that was about ignition and had nothing to do with cam timing, which seemed a bit odd to me at the time. The latest to suggest a check of the cam timing is Vince's post #136 above. There may have been one or two others in between, but I don't recall you ever confirming that the cam timing is correct.

A camshaft being even slightly out of time can produce all the symptoms you describe. Low compression, inability to rev out, popping, farting, backfiring, etc. One tooth out on a sprocket is certainly enough to do that. You really need to get the cam cover off and check the timing marks. Even that may not be sufficient if your engine has mis-matched camshafts and sprockets (as mine did). The only foolproof way to check is to dial in the cams with a degree wheel. That job can be a bit of a head scratcher if you haven't done it before, but it's not technically difficult. We're here to help. While you're at it, check the valve clearances (apologies if you've already done that - I don't feel like going back through the whole thread to check).

Your most recent post above refers to carbs with "scored slides" and "slide levels are up and down all over the place" which is not ideal. I presume you have Dellortos (I don't recall any mention of different carbs). Red does Mikuni RS36 conversions, so he may have discarded sets of Dellortos in his parts bin that that are better than yours that you could buy from him. It's worth asking anyway.

Although I suspect your basic issue is not carb related. Unless your carbs are comprehensively knackered, the bike should rev out ok. Laverda triples are pretty tolerant of poorly tuned carbs. It may not start easily, idle well or run very efficiently with worn carbs, but it should run well enough at wide open throttle to rev beyond 8000rpm if your jetting is somewhere in the ball park. Worn slides and carb imbalance have less effect at WOT. With the carbs fully open, slides, needles, idle jets, mixture screws and all that fine tuning paraphernalia become pretty much irrelevant. All your carby boils down to is an open venturi and a main jet. As long as there's no restriction to fuel or air flow, it should rev its tits off. Take the pod filters off if you doubt their ability to flow enough air, although they normally aren't restrictive devices. Plenty of Laverdas (including my Jota) run pod filters with no breathing issues.

I do think it's more likely to be camshaft timing or ignition issues that's causing you the major headaches. You appear to have replaced most ignition components several times (although I don't recall if you tried different coils), which would tend to eliminate problems in that area. That points the finger more in the direction of cam timing being wrong.

Having the bike worked on by someone else can be something of an impediment to understanding the issue. I have no idea who your mechanic is. He might be very good, but in my 50+ years of riding and fiddling with bikes, I've found that with a few exceptions, many professional bike mechanics are not particularly useful. You're better off learning how to fix things yourself than paying someone else to piss about with it and not fix anything. The exceptions include several of the bike mechanics on this forum (even if they famously don't call themselves mechanics).

Whoever told you the engine needs a complete rebuild simply because of slightly low compression is not necessarily correct (ref your post #113). While that's certainly a possibility, poor compression is only indicative of a top end problem, not a "full engine rebuild". There are several not too serious issues that can reduce compression. Refer to comments re cam timing above. Other possibilities are incorrect valve clearances, a sticking valve, bad head gasket, tired piston rings ...

Anyway, keep at it. You'll get there eventually. There's no problem that huge amounts of time and money can't fix ;)
 
Cam, that’s a very diplomatic response. When I raised the issue of cam timing in response #133, Robin’s response came over to me as dismissive and in my opinion of poor attitude (although I can still sympathize with his frustration of buying a bike that has turned out to be a lemon) so I didn’t bother wasting any more of my time on it. Cam timing would be at the top of the list of things to check. I have had a Jota that had been rebuilt and displayed the same symptoms, including low compression, as Robin’s 3CE. Robin is getting advice based on experience, not kind words, which he appreciates but doesn’t fix his problem. When you come across rouge bikes you can’t assume anything and I always go back and start from a baseline of all factory settings. Valve clearances and valve timing especially.
Tearing the top end off an old 3C engine will predictably find worn bores, certainly worn piston ring lands, worn valve guides and stems, cam bearing block and no doubt the liners requiring reset and be prepared for possible cracks in the head and which will likely need a skim, to name the obvious. Before embarking on what could turn out to be a seriously expensive exercise, it really doesn’t take much time to check the valve timing with a dial gauge. If it’s not that, then it can be ruled out, however that’s still where my money is on. And going by what else has had to be put right outside of the engine, it wouldn’t fill me with any optimism that the engine internals are in tip top condition. As has been said, even in a shagged out state the engine should rev freely under no load.
 
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