Weird

I crimped the ends of the sockets a smidge so the pins were tighter and reassembled the plug now when I start the bike it show 13.7 at idle and slowly rises to 14.3-4 at 3-4k then sits on about 14.2-3 back on idle, 1500revs. a couple of times the volts dropped from 14.3 down to 13.5~ but it wouild slowly climb again. It's a little all over the shot but I am seeing 14.4. Crimping the deutsch sockets seems to have solved the problem.
But at the beginning of all this pre Deutsch Plug I had a reading of 13.7 and was why I brought a new RR and Deutsch plug in the first place and when fitted all was good until 800 kays later when the new RR fail and it went down hill from there. And the original RR is fitted as well.
 
The better figures are what I get on my dash-mounted gauge, sounds very similar to my issues except mine were too much voltage instead of too little and mine defied logic for ages as well plus resulted in 3 or 4 regulators being tried. Now mine shows 14.4 at 4000 and just under 12,8 after a couple of weeks of sitting and not starting. My new Deca battery has improved cold starting to virtually instantly. BTW mine was close to being burned at the stake as well with repeated head banging for a very long time till Martys Regulator collection and Brett John and Rob and plenty of combined input here sorted it. It's apparent so simple but so infuriating when it happens to you, riding expressways with high beam and heated grips on in summer weather and it's showing 16volts and more. My advice is to get a gauge and fit it to your dash, I bet these issues are more common than we think and best found and fixed.
 
Well fuck me, tidied up the wiring and started it again for that warm fuzzy feeling of 14.4v and now there is zero output.
Pulled the Deutsch plug apart again reconnected socket to pins and still no output.
Will try the other rr tomorrow. There is 14.5 volts there somewhere FFS
 
Out at a gig all day, helps with mind control and ordered thoughts playing a gig......

Ok Rob, you have progress, albeit steps forward and backwards. Your "Zero output" has me perplexed, are you measuring the DC output of the RR only, ie fuse removed to battery? May not be understanding you correctly. FWIW I would change as little as possible at this time, that is do not change the RR, SH530-12 are very tough. Refer to my suggestion of a simple terminal block for the stator to RR connection, reads like your dropping a phase or all three phases ( more correctly these are line connections ) more in the morning j. ***** be looking closely at the negative RR to Battery Negative connections and wire, pull end to end firmly the wire itself ie wire fracture inside the outer insulation, like stretching spagetti it does not feel "solid", same with lugs or mechanical connections in the negative ( real term "return" path ) connection circuit.
 
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Had to lookup what a Deutsch connector system was, the name i did not know, the type of connector system had seen previous. Personal opinion, since the series 1 motors have a small tunnel for the alternator wires to pass through there is no value in a plug on the end. Faston 6,3m/m "spade" connectors will pass if three different wire lengths are cut, like three blind mice form. The individual fastons will plug direct onto a SH530 connection "blades", ditto the sense and DC output blades ( pins ), simple to diagnose and when a long way from home, no elaborate plug system to tangle with.

Much what you see in plug systems has to do with "aid to manufacture" than best solution, in electronics you have parts specifications balanced against cost per unit. When doing one off jobs or repairs you are not subject to those restrictions and can plumb for a best part for the job or repair, individual cost has no meaningful criteria. When you see a welded part it is to aid manufacture and not maintenance, as a broad concept. There are times for neat tidy plugs, there are times it is counter productive. Most times the tooling required to do small task numbers is well outside home duties.

Witness the ill conceived plastic plumbing in domestic installations, different standards and all require special tools overall, some exceptions. My place, copper and 50/50 solder, the lead is tiny compared to the mass of the plumbing. Waiting for the day someone wakes up that most of the Sydney high volume potable water reticulation is done through asbestos lined cast iron pipes.... modern world is being lead by folk far more a danger than the materials they purport to "protect" us from.... another ramble...part of the at repair bench ethos.. mind is alert at all times.... see how you manage with your wiring and connector issues, Rob, the parts in use are working, it is a wiring connector problem your chasing now. HTH j.
 
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Morning John, Have to agree with you it's a connector problem. So today my task will be to cut the pins off the Stator wire and RR input and do as you say and use a terminal block, assuming a terminal block is one of those plastic cover brass with a couple of screws to clamp onto the soldered ends of the wire? It was only when I was playing with the Deutsch plug that I got above 14v. Pretty sure that the 3 output wires from the RR are working as they should. Too bad I snipped off the spades on the RR input otherwise I would have just fixed spades to the ends of the stator.
Could replace the Deutsch sockets and pins with spades also an option. When I did start to see 14+ volts I was surprise how slow it climb from 13.5 when starting the motor. It would take like 15-20 seconds climbing at 0.01v and once It got to 14.4~ it would drop down to 14.2 at idle, 1500rpm.
A couple of times when holding at 14.4 it would suddenly drop back to mid 13 again then slowly rise again. Thought electricity moved faster than that!! Anyway I was very happy to see above 14v so know that the stator and RR working.
This arvos job, will report back the results, fingers crossed all will be good.
 
I did like the Deutsch plug, easy to disassemble, nice small pins/sockets for easy inserting through small openings and water proof not that water is an issue in my electrical box. I measured up the pin lengths and was surprised that only 5mm actually go into the sockets when all assembled.
It was when I removed them from the housings and plugged them together having full length inserted into the socket that I got 14+ volts.
Also crimping the sockets ends a smidge helped tighten the connection. It was after reassembly and tidying up the wiring that the output went backwards down to 13.3 volts [battery voltage] and no change when reving.
 
Yes rob, standard style terminal block as you described, the horrible common chinese variants have weak screws and tiny tunnels, hard to find the old school style. You could just use single screw and tunnel termination or "BP"'s as known in the electrical trade.

First and foremost you should secure the electrical connections mechanically/visual and electrically. Achieve a stable predictable charging system, then revert to what you would like to use, in a single step, one change at a time process.

Nearly there Rob. The reason for the apparent inertia in the voltage readings is the low internal impedance of the new battery... take a bit to explain, you would have sufficient complex details to deal with already. j
 
motoddrob said:
I did like the Deutsch plug, easy to disassemble, nice small pins/sockets for easy inserting through small openings and water proof not that water is an issue in my electrical box. I measured up the pin lengths and was surprised that only 5mm actually go into the sockets when all assembled.
It was when I removed them from the housings and plugged them together having full length inserted into the socket that I got 14+ volts.
Also crimping the sockets ends a smidge helped tighten the connection. It was after reassembly and tidying up the wiring that the output went backwards down to 13.3 volts [battery voltage] and no change when reving.
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On the RGS complex 2 phase 3phase headlight switch arrangement, the 15A fastons were discoloured to black on the insulation cover. A shunt reg pulls more than 15A for parts of the reg cycle, in a high duty cycle environment over time the fastons cooked. Hence some went for the higher rated yellow grade fastons, know i did until the SH530 fixed all the problems for series 1 and series 2 alternator systems. The rated current capacity for the connector system you use should be rated greater than 15Amps. j
 
The terminal blocks I have are old school pre chinese that have been in my box of electrical stuff since the 70s. I'll fix it to that ally plate and if all good it can stay that way.
 
motoddrob said:
The terminal blocks I have are old school pre chinese that have been in my box of electrical stuff since the 70s. I'll fix it to that ally plate and if all good it can stay that way.
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may have to double over the stripped end of the fine wires from the stator, the screws in the terminal block can sever the fine wires as you apply the screws, loath to suggest you use bootlace style crimp termination, at risk of introducing further mechanical electrical connections to deal with. Your correct of course about use of pre existing connection schemes for SH530 and stator terminations, academic now. Will not prevent a secure connection system at this time, all the same. j.
 
motoddrob said:
I plan to solder the ends that get clamped
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At great personal risk to my well being..... soldering a stripped wire end and then crimp or screw clamp results in an insecure connection over time as the solder ( 60/40 Sn Pb ) cold flows, ie the joint relaxes causing a high resistance or intermittent connection. Double over the wire end Rob and moderate pressure on the screw fixing. j.
 
There are heaps of Deutsh connectors on my 2008 Benelli. I've had a few electrical issues with that bike, and it's always been those bloody Deutsh connectors. They seem to be a good idea that's been poorly executed.

They look good with all the waterproof seals and stuff, but they have skinny little pins (that are easily bent) and a very small contact overlap between pins and sockets. I've also found that the pins are often loose in the sockets, so contact is pretty haphazard. I've developed a deep mistrust of them, especially where the connection has to carry any significant current, like a charging system.

I prefer the old 6mm spade or 4mm bullet connectors with proper silicone type insulators (not the shitty pre-insulated type). They may not be waterproof, but you don't really need waterproof connections on a bike.

I've only ever had one electrical failure on a bike caused by water ingress. But that was an extreme dunking in salt water when a wave broke over a causeway, completely drenching me and the bike. In that case it was the spark plugs that shorted out because they were actually underwater for a short time (Deutsch connectors wouldn't have helped there). By the time I'd pushed the dead bike the 50m or so to the end of the causeway, engine heat had dried the plugs and we were on our way again. I hosed all the salt off when I got home and had no further problem.
 
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Oh and credit to Rob in the UK, he clocked there was a probable missing phase ( line ). We had to do the long road to home as a lot was new or changed, from first fault appearance instance. As a guide for those with an interest, generally an RR output at 13,7 or close ( Motor at above 1500rpm ) is most probable a missing yellow wire, either breakage or faulty electrical connection, easy things first is a way to mitigate grief... j
 
Thanks John... it was pure coincidence that I was working on a bike* with that symptom recently. Really glad (motod) Rob has the end of his frustrating electrical journey in sight 😃

Personally I prefer to use crimped, good quality (Japanese) bullets for alternator to RR wiring with a smear of contact grease to minimise corrosion risk over time. Easy to poke through engine case holes if needed and plenty of contact area to carry that current. The bigger problem is cleaning up the oxidised conductor strands on 40 year old wiring. 😑

When I first saw a Deutsch connector for this application I wondered. Pins are rated at 13A but I suspect the genuine 4 way crimp tool at over £400 is essential to reliably achieve this. There are much cheaper 3rd party alternatives...dunno how good they are.

* The get him home repair employed twisted wires and insulation tape 🤣
 
Rob said:
Thanks John... it was pure coincidence that I was working on a bike* with that symptom recently. Really glad (motod) Rob has the end of his frustrating electrical journey in sight 😃

Personally I prefer to use crimped, good quality (Japanese) bullets for alternator to RR wiring with a smear of contact grease to minimise corrosion risk over time. Easy to poke through engine case holes if needed and plenty of contact area to carry that current. The bigger problem is cleaning up the oxidised conductor strands on 40 year old wiring. 😑

When I first saw a Deutsch connector for this application I wondered. Pins are rated at 13A but I suspect the genuine 4 way crimp tool at over £400 is essential to reliably achieve this. There are much cheaper 3rd party alternatives...dunno how good they are.

* The get him home repair employed twisted wires and insulation tape 🤣
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All noted Rob, Gestalt in action...a large grin here. Mating cycle limits also an overlooked parameter, not so much for "on bike" situation, though needs to be kept in mind for connection systems that are part of a high maintenance environment. The golf buggy i was repairing used the Anderson battery plug as an on off switch, contacts flogged out and i suspect dropped supply to the variable speed drives mid operation, and nuked the output drive transistors and pwm driver chips, both wheel motor drives.

Changed as little as possible during the extended period of return from golf links field failures, the module failures were not the actual fault, it was elsewhere hiding from me... step by step eliminating what was working to only leave battery and wheel motors. The Anderson connections had been modified at factory of cart maker, ie moulded so changing to different standard form off the shelf 15/30/45 amp housing was problematic. Not same as Rob's electrical, though a similar philosophy applied, as you do also i would proffer.

What assisted markedly in the fault chase on alternator was the photo, indicating a non standard connection system, if mentioned by Rob i do not recall, had predicted he was doing the fastons into the SH530 housing as flying connections. New Inertia was found from that photo, what was it about words and pictures.... bye for now, j.
 
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