Wiring diagram & Ignitech

R

Rokka

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Peterborough
Having replaced the failed Starter motor successfully - fingers crossed - on the RGS, I now have to solve the original problem I had, a cold pipe on the off side. having switched things about at the top and determined by elimination that all coils and ballast appear to be functional. I now have to investigate the Ignitech and the sensors. The trouble is I didn't install the ignition and have no real understanding of it and to make matters worse the wiring diagrams on this site are of such poor quality that I can't read the colours on most of the wires to trace the routes through the three block connectors to the ignition box. the black block connectors have some colours written on them but these don't correspond in all cases to the colours of wire connected at those points. I've tested the sensors for resistance/conectivity and i'm getting a 0 which I assume is good as at least 2 of them are working fine but it doesn't rule out a short. I have the disc that came with the ignition and the USB connector from the previous owner but no one in the house is allowed to put any software on their work PC laptops and all the personal computers are Macs so I'm a bit stymied as to what/how to investigate further. any suggestions would be geatfully received. If I can borrow a windows PC does the ignition/software have any diagnostic capability?
 
Quite normal for the offside pipe to be cold, it's off. Remember that your offside is my nearside, unless I'm riding the other side.

If your machine was working before, I would start simple. Coils, connections to, HT leads and plug caps, then look to the Ignitech connections.
Paul
 
Are you absolutely sure that your bike has an Ignitech ignition box?
From what you have said can you confirm that you are using the original Bosch / BTZ triggers?
A photo of the ignition box; triggers and mysterious 'black block connectors' would help clarify things.

The triggers (assuming OE) should not measure 0, but a lot depends on what 0 refers to. It sounds as though you were checking for continuity? However, the triggers will have - or should have - some resistance.

The lack of a PC to interrogate the Ignitech isn't a massive issue atm, if we assume the previous owner had got it set up and running correctly.

There is absolutely no need for the system to use the ballast resistors so they should be removed and the wires to each directly connected to each other.

If you haven't done so, fit new plugs.

Join the ILOC to avail of the excellent coloured wiring diagrams there. They won't of course help with the Ignitech wiring. For that you need to refer to the Ignitech wiring schematic.
 
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Paul
Not stone cold when the other two will burn you it isn't. I have, as I said, started simple, by changing over the connections to the coils and ballast and HT leads and found that the coils of my offside cylinder ( or the droite when sat on the bike ) work perfectly well when connected to the output and plug of the central cylinder. The same conclusion can therfore be drawn with the plugs even if the electronic timing light hadn't told me there's no spark; Therefore have concluded that the problem is further back in the chain than that. Hense my request.
 
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HI Rob thanks for responding. do these help? I can check the resistance if I have an idea what scale to use. It has had new plugs and from my reply to Paul you'll see that all three are working. I now have managed to blag a PC as well for a week if it turns out it is necessary. the black block connectors are the ones that originally connected to the Bosche amplifiers and now connect to the Ignitech adapter. the sensors are the original bosch ones I believe.IMG_5854.JPGIMG_5852.JPGIMG_5853.JPG
 
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Great, thanks for the photos. They explain a lot.
So, Ignitech plumbed into original BTZ wiring. Not ideal and way more complicated than it needs to be. I seem to remember another installation like this - Australia maybe? Anyway....

First thing to carefully check is the condition of the trigger wiring. The insulation gets brittle with age. Usually apparent at the triggers inside the casing - yours looks OK from the photos. But do have a close look yourself to ensure the insulation is fully intact. Then trace the trigger wiring to the 6 way plug and socket at the back of the crankcase. Pull the connector apart and inspect contacts which must be clean. Again check the insulation on each of the 6 wires - it fails there too.

With an ohmmeter, check the resistance of each trigger using the pins in the connection block. Each trigger should be 60 ohms, give or take. The wires to the triggers are white and white/black. Makes sure you get the right pair of wires...should be adjacent pins in the block! If the coloured tape (Red, Yellow, Black) is still in place around the wires, you can use that to confirm the pairing. Whilst you are testing, also check between the pin and earth (ground) - there should be no continuity there (infinite resistance). Reassemble the connector.

I was going to ask you to repeat the checks at the connector to the Ignitech, but matters are complicated by retaining the BTZ sockets! Referring to the standard RGS wiring diagram doesn't help much either - it looks as though wires to your HT coils are Orange (#1), White (#2) and Yellow/Black (#3). Can you confirm? As previously stated, you should remove the ballast resistors - they are superfluous.

I'm struggling to identify the multiplicity of blue wires into the BTZ plugs - one looks as though it has a brown trace on it? I'm guessing they may be the trigger wires but one looks as though it's in the wrong position in the connector, so maybe not! If you look at the RGS wiring diagram, you'll see that the original wiring had the trigger wiring as red/black and red/white (#1) ; white and white/black (#2); green/black and green/white (#3).

The Ignitech 20 way connector wiring is shown in the attached pdf - the full manual for the TCIP4 unit is here - select whichever version you have although pinout largely remained the same. There are more wires on to the pins than I'd expect. It's difficult to see from your photo if two wires go on to one pin, or separate (one behind the other). Some look as I'd expect (e.g. +12v on the red wire to pin 13) but again those pesky blue wires confuse the picture. It would help if you could do some digging to trace things through.
 

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Thanks very much for all that Rob. How would the Ignitech box be more usually connected in your opinion ie without the retaining of the old BTZ sockets. one thing I'm slightly confused about is that the diagram ( I have the same one and the instructions to the Ignitech tcip4 v80 now that I have managed to borrow a windows laptop for a week ), is that it always shows wiring and pins for two pick-ups only. Where is the 3rd pick-up connected? ( it's an academic question as the bike was running fine for the first week of my ownership and the wiring has essentially not changed so it must work but I'd just like to understand it better.) The wiring under the engine when I investigated it was a mess ( this is previous to the starter failing and it's a total miracle to me how it ever ran! see pics. at that point it didn't just backfired a bit when attempting to start however I rewired all that and fitted the starter and from that point on it has started reliably but on just the two pots. You will probably feel ( as I do ) that that wiring is the most likely therefore to be the source of the problem ( I always suspect my own work first ) but I can't find anything obviously wrong with it visually or continuation wise. I will now try the resistance test you detailed and see if the resistance varies. and get back to you on the results. Have also joined ILOC who took my money but haven't told me how to set a password etc so not sure how to log in but sure I'll recieive an email or something soon. IMG_5655.JPGIMG_5656.JPG
 
@Rokka please note you have different ignitech version to most. This is the type supplied by Ignitech themselves with an adapter harness to use all the original BTZ inductive pickups/wiring. So ignore well meaning help centred around the widely-used Redax-supplied Ignitech system which uses different pickups/wiring and a slightly different TCIP4 box (hall vs inductive).

The TCIP4 only has two pickup channels, so they double two pickups together onto one channel and then sort it out in software within the TCIP4. This is the 'Laverda 3x120' setting that is not used by the Redax system. It sounds a bit daft but works fine if everything is in good order. Unfortunately that is rarely the case with those old pickups, as is the case with yours. Perhaps start by replacing the pickup wiring. It is also quite easy to use new inexpensive inductive pickups from Ignitech on a custom or modified original baseplate - better solution.
 
Rokka said:
Thanks very much for all that Rob. How would the Ignitech box be more usually connected in your opinion ie without the retaining of the old BTZ sockets. one thing I'm slightly confused about is that the diagram ( I have the same one and the instructions to the Ignitech tcip4 v80 now that I have managed to borrow a windows laptop for a week ), is that it always shows wiring and pins for two pick-ups only. Where is the 3rd pick-up connected? ( it's an academic question as the bike was running fine for the first week of my ownership and the wiring has essentially not changed so it must work but I'd just like to understand it better.) The wiring under the engine when I investigated it was a mess ( this is previous to the starter failing and it's a total miracle to me how it ever ran! see pics. at that point it didn't just backfired a bit when attempting to start however I rewired all that and fitted the starter and from that point on it has started reliably but on just the two pots. You will probably feel ( as I do ) that that wiring is the most likely therefore to be the source of the problem ( I always suspect my own work first ) but I can't find anything obviously wrong with it visually or continuation wise. I will now try the resistance test you detailed and see if the resistance varies. and get back to you on the results. Have also joined ILOC who took my money but haven't told me how to set a password etc so not sure how to log in but sure I'll recieive an email or something soon. View attachment 85285View attachment 85286
Click to expand...
That looks about right for 40 yr old pik up wiring.......... :giggle:
 
Hugely indebted to Steve (breganzane) - I didn't know that Ignitech directly supplied a kit for the RGS. So me trying to make sense of conventional connector pin wiring is probably redundant.

But the good news is that if those photos are of your pickup wiring you've almost certainly found the problem. Pound to a penny that one of the bare trigger wires was shorting out, preventing the tiny voltage pulse getting to the Ignitech box.

You could fiddle about and try replacing the wiring, but making a good connection at the trigger end is fraught. Much better to replace as Steve says
 
I have replaced the wiring; I was trying to explain, not very well, that I replaced that wiring from just outside the pick-up casing to the connector as previous to that, though there were sparks ( it backfired when attempting to start ) they were obviously not correct. After I did the re-wire I then had two pots firing ok and just the offside ( in GB ) not sparking at all. After checking the coil etc by changing over connections I came to the conclusion that I must have bodged my re-wire slightly, however checking it again multiple times has given me no clues where. I tested the pick-ups for resistance today and they all came in at 0.21 or 0.216 depending which scale you set but the point is they are all the same and no shorts. There has now been a further development however I now have NO SPARKS AT ALL, dead as a door nail, it turns over well but there are no sparks. there is 12v to the coils and 12V to the ignition box through the red wire but it's not doing anything other than possibly the tacho. All other functions of the bike are working, horns, lights and bizarrely Tacho!! though it doesn't seem quite as wild as usual.
With regard to what you are saying, re Redax, the previous owner told me that when they fitted the ignition initially it was very poor and would hardly run at all but he contacted Redax who sent him some settings and it worked really well after that. He has also supplied me with the original removed bosch blocks so I might try them back on just to see if a spark is generated at all. but overall further away from happy today than yesterday.
 
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Rokka said:
The wiring under the engine when I investigated it was a mess ( this is previous to the starter failing and it's a total miracle to me how it ever ran! see pics. at that point it didn't just backfired a bit when attempting to start however I rewired all that and fitted the starter and from that point on it has started reliably but on just the two pots
Click to expand...

So you have already rewired the degraded wiring shown in your photos? Bear in mind that inductive pickups have a polarity, you may have transposed two wires and have effectively thrown out the AC wave pattern the Ignitech is expecting.

BUT!! Always start by putting in fresh brand new plugs. It sounds like you have done that but maybe some time earlier? It is very easy to rich-foul plugs on poor running bikes. Before doing anything else put in a set of brand new B8ES NGK plugs from a reputable source (not ebay ripoffs).

Oh, and as Rob says - remove the balast resistors (aka anti-start resistors), they are superflous.

EDIT: Saw your most recent reply after typing this, but it stands...
 
Thanks Breganzane. I have replaced the plugs v recently. but there is no spark through the HT leads as verified by the Timing gun failing to flash on the outside pot, ( and now any of them ) would a dud plug affect that? but academic as they have been replaced anyway. I take your point about polarity, I don't think so as the wires are differentiated by a black stripe but I will check that again just in case, more worried by the fact that it seems to have given-up-the-ghost completely now.
I can connect the computer to it now so will that be able to tell me anything useful or not?
 
I am no expert but apparently, you need something called a serial port connection on the laptop and lots of newer laptops don't have that whatever THAT is.
 
That's correct it's a USB to RS232 cable, you also need a bit of software, but happily that was also supplied to me by the bikes previous owner, a disc with the programming App and instructions, and also a usb memstick with the settings provided by Redax originally. It was just a PC I was lacking, I'm a graphic designer and custom painter by trade so I've always been Mac based but that's now been temporarily solved so hopefully I can connect.
 
The software will tell you a bit, like voltage and the presence of pickup input when its turning over. It does actually detect and display pickup polarity and errors, although might not be totally reliable in this case with the doubled inputs on pickups 2&3 if one of those is wrong. Also shows you rpm which from memory should be something like 400rpm when cranking with the plugs out - if it's a lot less than that you might be missing some inputs (pickups).

What it won't tell you is that the plugs are wet and/or rich fouled, which is very possibly what's going on. :p
 
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If you have rich fouled and or wet plugs but your coils are good and are sending a HT spark voltage to them, would an electonic timing gun, of the type which uses a sensor that clips round the HT lead, flash or not. All my plugs are a bit wet on inspection at present because I'm turning it over and sucking plenty of fuel in but it's not igniting due to there being no spark. Got air, Got fuel, not got spark so not got combustion.
If the software will tell me about one or two of the pick-ups being present/functional then that would be very useful. Will have a go at that tomorrow and take it from there. Have now removed the coil ballast from the circuit BTW on your advice, so tomorrow we'll see if that makes any difference. I have to admit I'll be delighted but suprised if it's the difference between a spark and no spark in one cylinder last week and now all three but every little suggestion is welcome and worth trying.
 
Rokka said:
If you have rich fouled and or wet plugs but your coils are good and are sending a HT spark voltage to them, would an electonic timing gun, of the type which uses a sensor that clips round the HT lead, flash or not.
Click to expand...
In my experience, not necessarily. A guy called @iis_iis can tell you exactly why...

Rokka said:
Will have a go at that tomorrow and take it from there. Have now removed the coil ballast from the circuit BTW on your advice, so tomorrow we'll see if that makes any difference. I have to admit I'll be delighted but suprised if it's the difference between a spark and no spark
Click to expand...
Removing the ballast is unlikley to unfoul your plugs now but might help prevent them fouling next time... ;)
 
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