Wiring diagram & Ignitech

Sorry to sidetrack - is there any way of knowing if an (my) Ignitech ignition system is in jeopardy of being fried if a plug cap is removed and not earthed to, for eg, check individual cylinder carb balance/operation at idle? With points I'd just pull a plug cap off, but I have the Igni TCI-P4, neg polarity confirmed.
 
I heard this a while back but I had Johns's kit and it's protected from this. It's good to confirm that Ignitech is also protected. It's a bit academic as the only time I do it is with a plug connected to check for sparks by earthing it on the engine.
 
piranha-bro2 said:
Sorry to sidetrack - is there any way of knowing if an (my) Ignitech ignition system is in jeopardy of being fried if a plug cap is removed and not earthed to, for eg, check individual cylinder carb balance/operation at idle? With points I'd just pull a plug cap off, but I have the Igni TCI-P4, neg polarity confirmed.
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I do it all the time, pull plug caps off, spin engine for whatever reason
Ignitech will not fry
 
Personal recommendation to not cause huge reflected HT voltages back into the ignition modules, commensurate with that is the quality of the ignition coil construction. high leakage inductance ( coupling between primary and secondary windings ) such as the bosch GT40 open frame model, will nuke a box at some stage, why bosch brought out the "electronic ignition" variant of GT40. Rubbish coil no matter the PR blurb. The GT40 is points only coil, the capacitor ( quaint term "condenser" as in condenses electricity ) across the points damps much of the extraneous reflected voltage waves. The only time i suffered a nuked iis was on a Duck S2 Millie with pair of GT40's. Toughened up the protection on the drive transistors, no failures subsequently again, on any iis module.

While you may not effect the ignitech, Red, you will have significant high voltages developed internally of the ignition coil, stressing the interwinding insulation. If lucky no problem, if unlucky the reliability is impinged by repeated high voltage standing waves. The odd time maybe ok, as a part of workshop practice, would not recommend oc'ing the HT leads.

Possibly some of you may have seen a spark from an open HT cover to engine block, that requires well over 35KV, sparkgap bridging potential takes 3KV per mm at sea level. 10m/m would need 30KV, 20mm 60KV to ionize a gap that size.

Each owners call of course, good practice takes only a few minutes, HTH j.
 
iis_iis said:
no damage as such from mis-wired or reversed primary winding connection, most desirable is a negative going potential at the spark plug HT spark. Reversed primary would make it positive going, by way of configuration going back to kettering days, all HT current returns back to the primary in Y type ignition coil terminations ie one side of the secondary is connected to one side of the primary and is the reason why you can nuke an electronic ignition module, tens of thousands of volts being flung back at the drive transistors ( and control electronics ) if the HT leads are not connected to plugs and engine frame.
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Thanks for all of that iis_iis. You know far more about this stuff than me so I have no idea what a y type ignition coil termination is or a dual tower coil. supply from the kill switch and internal wire fracture detection is basic enough for me and is what I'm working on.
So far, supply to coils via kill switch is good ( previously tested and now tested again )
resistance between orange wire into coil one end, and black wire into coil other end so that's the primary windings is that right, are 4.2Ω on all the coils. have determined HT leads are copper.
Getting a resistance reading of 8.72, 8.86 and 8.59 via end of HT lead from coils using the 20K scale in front to back order. The rear one being the one with no spark
 
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Thanks Red and John. Two slightly conflicting thoughts there! I think Red, you're running 0.5ohm Nologys? Far cry from a GT40!

The Igni certainly won't suffer the same fate as the triples did - I fried a box when working on one at Hartleys back in the day, just spinning the motor over on the starter. I'll probably just start the bike on one cyl with the other side earthed to a plug sitting on the head.
 
That pulling one plug was a thing to adjust the mix screw on one carb at a time on Triumph Bonnies my Pantah and probably Laverda twins I guess. Never fiddled with a Laverda twin, something to try on the Atlas twin choke Delordo maybe. You know, turn the screw in till it runs bad and out to the same and split the difference and then add an 1/8th of a turn to slightly richer one cylinder at a time. I guess you could earth that pulled lead on a plug to be safe.
 
I've now worked my way through the connections from the plugs backwards to the pickups, didn't find any lack of continuity or broken cores inside insulation but never the less every bullet has been rubbed with some Scotch bright and sprayed with electrical cleaner, all the block connectors have had the same. The black connectors for cylinders 1 and 2 (as numbered on diagram ) look particularly rough like they'd been subjected to either some serious heat at one point or some solvent or battery acid because they had a slightly melted look around the spade receptors. As part of this process I produced a wiring diagram of the Ignition section of the RGS wiring diagram with the Ignitech wiring adapter fitted, as a PDF. I seem to be the only person on earth with this adapter on their bike but if there is anyone that would find it useful, just ask. The upshot is after all that, on the first day of under 27ºC for ages it started on all three on very slight choke and settled down to tick-over after about 30 seconds of gradualy reducing choke. Of course the next most worrying thing after a fault that appears for no apparent reason is one that disappears the same way. you're always looking over your shoulder so to speak.
much of the wiring has been moved out of the way and re-routed slightly to allow access to other wiring and the tank, sidepanels and seat are also obviously off. So now I have to get everything back to where it was, replace all those snipped ties, replace the plastics and hope it's still working afterwards.
 
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While your there with tools in hand, the problematic 3rd phase of the alternator switched in and out by the headlight switch, if the original ND Rectifier Regulator ( RR ), can be bypassed if the RR is upgraded to the common Shindengen SH530 from the auto wreckers. Better outline may be had with a search here, related to RGS 120 RR and overheated bullet connectors... others may be more accurate in the search topic profile...

( i ) Like your comment, if it disappears while tracing, what was the problem and will it come back... well founded concern. Though your a lot more familiar with the electrical connections and ignition setup is valid, takes much of the unknown factor away.... should the fault return you will be at the ready, or die in the attempt, a wry smile here. j.
 
iis_iis said:
While your there with tools in hand, the problematic 3rd phase of the alternator switched in and out by the headlight switch, if the original ND Rectifier Regulator ( RR ), can be bypassed if the RR is upgraded to the common Shindengen SH530 from the auto wreckers. Better outline may be had with a search here, related to RGS 120 RR and overheated bullet connectors... others may be more accurate in the search topic profile...
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I have to be honest I'm not familiar with this problem, new to the bike obviously and all my time so far has been taken up with A finding a replacement starter and B getting the right pot to fire. I'll search, as you suggest before everything goes back on. Will that explain why I appear to have 5 wires coming from my rectifier but two appear to be duplicates added then not used?
 
yes, to last question, though from memory those extra same colour wires/connector come from the stator proper, others can correct me.... recall is not great here at times, it is not difficult to correct and you have a proper ND alternator already, possibly the oem ND RR ( smaller unit than replacement Shindengen types ). Trust am not being obscure.... j
 
iis_iis said:
yes, to last question, though from memory those extra same colour wires/connector come from the stator proper, others can correct me.... recall is not great here at times, it is not difficult to correct and you have a proper ND alternator already, possibly the oem ND RR ( smaller unit than replacement Shindengen types ). Trust am not being obscure.... j
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Sorry i meant stator not rectifier.
 
So Here we are again!
I rolled out the RGS yesterday morning, fired up with full choke and it started quickly but sounded lumpy, so feeling the pipes it turned out this time it was the centre pot that was cold ( last time it was the right one, some of you may recall ) so I pulled out the plug tested it, no spark, cleaned it up and tested it against the casing, still no spark. I took the plug cap off the HT lead it came off very easily and the hole in the end of the HT lead left by the screw looked very black. So I cut 5mm of the end of the lead and screwed the cap back on, stuck it back on the plug and tested it again, nice fat spark, problem solved, you'd think. Put it back in and pushed the button. Not a sausage apart from a couple of HUGE backfires.
So. Pulled out all three plugs and checked them all the plugs have what I would call healthy sparks but I gave all three a quick clean up anyway.
I have touched nothing else at all: but it won't fire, just gives me a huge occasional backfire, Voltage is 12.8, Starter motor is spinning beatifully, as I say all plugs are sparking.
Anyone got any suggestions as to why fixing one plug would bugger up the whole bike.
I thought I might have simply flooded it but I also thought spinning it few times whilst all three plugs were out being tested, fuel tap off, would have allowed that to dissipate, but tell me if I'm wrong. Along with any other suggestions.
 
Rokka said:
So Here we are again!
I rolled out the RGS yesterday morning, fired up with full choke and it started quickly but sounded lumpy, so feeling the pipes it turned out this time it was the centre pot that was cold ( last time it was the right one, some of you may recall ) so I pulled out the plug tested it, no spark, cleaned it up and tested it against the casing, still no spark. I took the plug cap off the HT lead it came off very easily and the hole in the end of the HT lead left by the screw looked very black. So I cut 5mm of the end of the lead and screwed the cap back on, stuck it back on the plug and tested it again, nice fat spark, problem solved, you'd think. Put it back in and pushed the button. Not a sausage apart from a couple of HUGE backfires.
So. Pulled out all three plugs and checked them all the plugs have what I would call healthy sparks but I gave all three a quick clean up anyway.
I have touched nothing else at all: but it won't fire, just gives me a huge occasional backfire, Voltage is 12.8, Starter motor is spinning beatifully, as I say all plugs are sparking.
Anyone got any suggestions as to why fixing one plug would bugger up the whole bike.
I thought I might have simply flooded it but I also thought spinning it few times whilst all three plugs were out being tested, fuel tap off, would have allowed that to dissipate, but tell me if I'm wrong. Along with any other suggestions.
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Hi Rokka, Have you put the spark plug caps on there correct plug.
 
Thanks Kermit good suggestion but I can say with absolute certainty I have. I never took plugs 1 and 2 ( left and Right ) out of their caps anyway, I have previously written on each lead in white industrial marker their position and firing order, and I checked the wiring diagram as well as I always assume I've bodged something but it all checks out.
 
I’ve had similar, one dud plug, persevere until I’ve fouled a second or third plug…
Solution was a cup of tea, then replace all three plugs with new ones, not just cleaned.
Give it a stern talking to and try again. Full choke till it starts, immediately go to half choke and ride away. Choke off as soon as you’re out of the driveway 👍
Of course it could be something more serious, but I’ve always been a fan of trying the simple things first 😁
 
Hi Andy

Thanks for that I know how to start it under "normal " conditions ( ie when it's working although I'm starting to wonder if that is normal conditions) but what I'm confused about given that you've presumably read my previous 2 posts is what exactly is a fouled Plug. And what does it do ( or not do ). I've owned about 10 bikes in my life time all execept one have been 4 strokes that includes a Guzzi a Benelli plenty of BSAs and a 1970s triumph so not all modern Japanese by any means and never had a bike that fouls plugs. ie that stopped working and was sorted out solely by changing the plugs, I've changed plugs after a couple of 1000 miles or so on a couple of them because some mechanic said it would be a good idea but that's it. This bike ( if you're correct seems to foul plugs every third trip. ( that's how long they've been in ) and what's more, plugs that are delivering what I would normally consider to be a pretty healthy spark ie brightly visible in direct sunlight and appearing to be regular can be regarded as "fouled", So. . .
1. Are Laverdas exceptionally bad at fouling plugs. 2. Why do they do it / how can it's occurence be minimised or eliminated, 3. What characteristics does a plug have to display to be considered fouled. ( or in other words can a plug producing a big fat spark when erthed against an engine case be "fouled"
I need help as I really can't afford to be buying a set of plugs every third ride
Thanks
 
Taking on a life of its own, pithy comment... backfires are symptomatic lean mixture or weak spark, rare though being a cross wired HT leads, the latter your convinced is not in this instance. Cannot recall what actual ignition is fitted to your RGS. One plug will not in of itself cause many problems, as a guide. You started the RGS and did not feel correct, second guess chuffing on the chokes wide open. That will have an effect on cold plugs, repeated the plugs become sooted or worse "poisoned" ie plugs are cheap compared to tank on and off for the RGS. Buy yourself a box of 10 new ones, if you can, B8ES is a good reference plug.

Spark plug cover arc back in the screw termination happens, hope you have copper core HT lead and not "graphite" or silicone HT leads. Open circuit covers is common, easy test with multimeter 5,000 or 5K ohms, looking back into the ignition coil to frame be in the order of 15,000 to 20,000 ohms, good test for lead and coil integrity. j
 
BTZ kills plugs, what ignition do you have. Laverda are ok, its the bosch BTZ that needs removing if fitted. What colour are the ignition coils. j
 
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Have never fouled a plug on my Jota since changing from a btw ignition system to a sascshe system. Plugs stay in there till I feel guilty about the rust buildup on the plug body and change them😊
Tom
 
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