Rokka, divide the problem in two, if ignitech module i would think self test options are onboard, if no internal switches then perhaps you need to use the comm port. Be testing the actual ignition coil drive and spark ( also sequence ) as one test then on confirmed correct completion turn to the incoming VR issues as may be present. HTH j
Wiring diagram & Ignitech
- Thread starter Rokka
- Start date
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
Dealt with wiring from 6way block to pups already and going by the tests you suggested they seem to be functioning ok. Rest of wiring is sound from insulation decay but I've possibly disturbed a connection somewhere it's just finding it, the tricky part is finding what is connected to what as I'm struggling to read the colours, ( or most of them, ) on the diagram available on the forum due to the pixelation of the low quality image.
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
And what you said.
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
tried to connect the computer to the Ignitech box today, the cable seems to be working ok though It will only register at COM port 7. I can get no communication with the Ignitech when they are connected, it's possible the program is set to COM Port 3 but any attempt to click on the com tab to check this results in the infamous ( not responding ) notification which remains indefinitely. So either the COM Ports are mismatched or the ignitech box is simply playing dead, which given that it's not producing any sparks at all seems perfectly possible. next strategy disconnect it and re-connect the old Bosch ballast and Amplifier Blocks just to see if that produces any spark and if so it would seem that I have somehow killed the Ignitech or the software just will not work on Windows 7 though it does launch.
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
Thanks John for sorting the pickup resistance mystery!
Replacing the BTZ silver boxes in lieu of the Ignitech is certainly an option if you can't talk to it with laptop. You don't need to replace the ballast resistors - they are redundant and can be binned.
I assume you did have ignition on when trying to talk to the Ignitech? What Ignitech software version are you using?
Replacing the BTZ silver boxes in lieu of the Ignitech is certainly an option if you can't talk to it with laptop. You don't need to replace the ballast resistors - they are redundant and can be binned.
I assume you did have ignition on when trying to talk to the Ignitech? What Ignitech software version are you using?
Win 7 is fine with the Ignitech software, no issues
If you do finally gain access to the software, set the Comm Port setting to Auto
You should have thrown the Ballast Resistors out by now, there must have been a rubbish bin collection since you removed them from the circuit
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
so if Win 7 is fine with the Ignitech software, no issues.-thanks Redax- it's either the fact that this Toshiba PC I borrowed is incredibly slow or the ignition box simply isn't playing ball. re. the Ballast resistors, only removed them from the circuit not from the bike, never burn your bridges.
So Rob if they are surplus to even the original bosch system why were they there in the first place?
and then
A spark has re-appeared today for no good reason or anything i've done AFAIK but sadly we're only back to where I was before the rewiring ( and the cause of it ) ie refuses to start some popping banging and backfiring when being turned over.
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
If you do a search here you'll find an expert explanation by iis_iis. Essentially to stop cooking the BTZ output transistors if you use lower impedance HT coils than standard . Has the effect of providing a weaker spark which is not what you want.
There's likely a loose connection somewhere in the myriad block/crimps I'd suggest checking the basics first... Do you have a solid 12v on the Ignitech 20 way? Ditto up at the HT coils? Turn ignition on and off off a few times in case you have an intermittent connection on the switch contact. Oh, and don't forget to look at the fuses for solid contact.
Is the Ignitech earth to a really clean connection? Final suggestion - the rubber mounted engine has a heavy duty battery lead that provides earth return. Again check and clean the frame /battery box end.
I've sent you a readable wiring diagram...
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
May indicate that the trigger wiring is crossed between cylinders. The Ignitech takes No 1 as the master and uses pulses from 2&3 to fire those plugs 120 degrees later on.
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
which will fly further over my head than a U2 I should think, yours will do fine thanks.
Which is what I've suspected from day one, but can I find the bugger?! yes a very solid nearly 13V at both. More likely an earth in either of those cases I think. Thanks massively for the wiring diagram that's brilliant.
In the couple of cases mine has done this, 3 times in 30-plus years it's always the earth wire and a wire close to the battery earth connection. As I said earlier, the battery rubber hold-down strap broke in a small tip over and that allowed the battery to move stressing a wire that must have had a long-term weakness, That stressed pulled wire caused an intermittent fault with it partially fraying that eventually broke contact under the insulation = dead bike 600ks from home. The best place for an earth is usually the battery. My battery is now packed solid against its mount with high-density foam cut to size so there is zero chance of it moving again, plus a new hold-down strap.
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
Thanks Vince, I have been inclined towards the earth theory but everything is working well and giving good voltage except that one coil isn't firing so I don't think the bad earth is as far back in the system as the battery it has to be somewhere after the ignition switch, Handlebar switches and instruments all work, I suspected the earth from the ignition unit but that now appears to be working at least to some extent ( see below )
Latest development for iis_iis, Rob and Redax who have also been really helpful on this, is that I gave up on the software provided on the disc I was given and re-downloaded it from the Ignitech website, This launched correctly so I was able to set the com port to the ignitech provided cable it then connected to the ignition straight away and was able to tell me that computer settings ( redax 3 x120 ) are identical to those set on the black box. there are 2 pups that are + polarity and is sending 3 outputs. When I pressed the starter it could tell me they were working and the starter revs were 480. not that it fired correctly however, just kept popping a bit and a backfiring but at least the ignition module is working to some extent. What does the box put out to trigger the coils? Can I test for that with the DMM at the point the black, green and orange wires from the ignition box join to the individual coils? if so what would I use setting/scale wise?
Thanks again for the diagram Rob although the size means my poor eyes still have trouble reading some of the text, the colours make it easy to use without needing to read anything. ( my ILOC membership card and magazine came Friday BTW so you're ethically in the clear ) I'm working my way through the system with my DMM.
Latest development for iis_iis, Rob and Redax who have also been really helpful on this, is that I gave up on the software provided on the disc I was given and re-downloaded it from the Ignitech website, This launched correctly so I was able to set the com port to the ignitech provided cable it then connected to the ignition straight away and was able to tell me that computer settings ( redax 3 x120 ) are identical to those set on the black box. there are 2 pups that are + polarity and is sending 3 outputs. When I pressed the starter it could tell me they were working and the starter revs were 480. not that it fired correctly however, just kept popping a bit and a backfiring but at least the ignition module is working to some extent. What does the box put out to trigger the coils? Can I test for that with the DMM at the point the black, green and orange wires from the ignition box join to the individual coils? if so what would I use setting/scale wise?
Thanks again for the diagram Rob although the size means my poor eyes still have trouble reading some of the text, the colours make it easy to use without needing to read anything. ( my ILOC membership card and magazine came Friday BTW so you're ethically in the clear ) I'm working my way through the system with my DMM.
Last edited:
when you open the "Bike" tab on the Ignitech software, set the polarity setting on the pick ups to Auto
Why is your current setting called redax 3 x 120, I am confused?
I am Redax but never seen Ignitech copy my Ignition maps, all my Ignition maps are configured around Hall Effect triggers
Besides, most of the Ignitech generic ignition maps suck
Why is your current setting called redax 3 x 120, I am confused?
I am Redax but never seen Ignitech copy my Ignition maps, all my Ignition maps are configured around Hall Effect triggers
Besides, most of the Ignitech generic ignition maps suck
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
I was told by the previous owner that he had bought the Ignition direct from ignitech but when he fitted it it either worked really badly or didn't work at all ( i can't remember which exactly ) but that he had contacted Redax who had provided him with some settings which he had used and after that it worked fine. I believe this was back in around 2014 or 2017 however, without the receipt to hand I wouldn't swear to either date. Does any of this sound familiar?
He had mentioned that they had them somewhere when I bought the bike but hadn't managed to locate them.
luckily by the time I had the problem with the bike starting and the starter motor failed, he had found them and supplied them to me on a Memory stick labeled Redax 3 x 120 ( hense my name for them ) through the post, along with the original Bosch units and the USB to serial cable and the Ignitech app and instruction file on a disc ( which didn't work on my PC ) but which I was able to re-download from the site.
Rob
Hero member
- Location
- Midlands, UK
It doesn't. It interrupts the 12v supply from the coil primary winding to earth.
Can you confirm the Ignitech firmware version on your box? On the versions I've used, it is possible to fire the plugs using the software under the 'Tests' tab..
Would be worth double checking that the pickups are wired to the correct connector (the ones labelled R Y B in your photos - corresponds to the red, yellow, black sleeve adjacent to the pickups). And please be aware that there is an error on the factory wiring diagram - cylinder numbers 2 & 3 are transposed on the pickups, plugs, ignition boxes and coils
.As with any of these help type posts, matter for all persons to have available, in written form, process to rectify problems or faults. While you find my answers not helpful, others may find value in basic theory ensuring a step by step success. Guessing this and guessing that is hit and miss, no surprise there.
Difficult to standby and watch on as more faults are introduced in the process of rectifying a basic fault. Still, we all learn as we go, some faster than others... j.
Difficult to standby and watch on as more faults are introduced in the process of rectifying a basic fault. Still, we all learn as we go, some faster than others... j.
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
How would you think I find your posts not helpful, or is that rhetorical? Both the correct resistance for the bosch Pups and the test to establish polarity came from you If I remember correctly without reading back through the whole thing. Now that i have been able to use the software, that has verified those tests. My only problem is that as yet the "basic fault" is still to be conclusively identified.
Is that universally acknowledged?! They seem logical on the pickups Are you sure the numbers aren't referring to firing order rather than position.
Much is of the "Perception is reality", indicating my replies were complex ( can be, also has basic information ) and by implication not useful in the compounding problems you have there Rokka. Fault diagnosis, remedy or repair can be more so based in philosophy than outright technical skill.
No doubt you have a technical aptitude, refined it will bring the desired result, seems from half a world away, changing too many things is obscuring the faults or more importantly, faults that appear as one fault only. Suppose at risk of stating one mans perception, restore the ignition as close to when running, then divide the ignition into two parts, as mentioned.
If nothing else, remove the anti start resistors ( 0,9 Ohm serve no gain in ignition performance ) ensure the HT leads are copper wire, not car silicone graphite composition, measure from the HT plug cap back into the coil secondary, to primary connection or frame, should be 5K ohm for the spark plug cover, plus around 15K for the secondary winding DC resistance, 20K there about, on all three coils, move the various electrical cables and connections as you measure for secure electrical performance. One of many tests this particular one, more the matter of eliminating parts of the circuit so concentrated effort on the actual area of concern. Intermittent issues can be particularly difficult, at first.
What ignition coils are on the RGS, not dark red are they? j
No doubt you have a technical aptitude, refined it will bring the desired result, seems from half a world away, changing too many things is obscuring the faults or more importantly, faults that appear as one fault only. Suppose at risk of stating one mans perception, restore the ignition as close to when running, then divide the ignition into two parts, as mentioned.
If nothing else, remove the anti start resistors ( 0,9 Ohm serve no gain in ignition performance ) ensure the HT leads are copper wire, not car silicone graphite composition, measure from the HT plug cap back into the coil secondary, to primary connection or frame, should be 5K ohm for the spark plug cover, plus around 15K for the secondary winding DC resistance, 20K there about, on all three coils, move the various electrical cables and connections as you measure for secure electrical performance. One of many tests this particular one, more the matter of eliminating parts of the circuit so concentrated effort on the actual area of concern. Intermittent issues can be particularly difficult, at first.
What ignition coils are on the RGS, not dark red are they? j
Rokka
Junior member
- Location
- Peterborough
The ignition wiring is as it was when it was working and subsequently stopped working, I've essentially changed nothing except to re-insulate the wires from the pickups to the six way connector block which necessitated the removal of the old and fitting of a new connector. I have also linked the black box to the computer and found it telling me that the pick ups are positive polarity and functioning. The only other alterations so far have been :-
1, To put in fresh spark plugs,
2, Remove the ballast resistors from the circuit,
3 Replace the failed Starter motor,
4 Charge the battery ( which is also virtually new }
I continue working my way through wires and connectors for integrity working back from the coils far more systematically and hopefully effectively now that I have the colour diagram from ILOC. But i still have to earn a living from self employment which means I work weekends sometimes ( this one was one ) and My daughter was on holiday in Marakesh when the earth quake struck so what with work and frantic attempts to contact her not a huge amount got done. Happily we have managed to get in touch with her and she's fine, so I returned to combat with my recalcitrant latest motorcycle purchase this afternoon by drawing up a diagram of the way the ignition wiring passes through the adapter lead provided by Ignitech which nobody else seems to have, so i can test for continuity right from the box to the coils and pickups.
To answer your last question, the coils are beige coloured, the orange and white wires connect at one end and the wire from the ignition module at the other, Though as I'm sure you're aware the sternmost coil ( labelled as 2 on the diagram ) is reversed so each wire is at the other end to the othr two. Looking at them I'd say they are almost certainly the originals for the bike, the HT leads exit from the underside and are stiff enough that I'm fairly certain that they are copper ( though I have to be honest and say I haven't wanted to disturb them or the NGK plug caps -which I suspect are not the originals ) enough to visually check the core by sight.
I'm always reluctant to change anything that has been working, but naturally suspect the work i have been forced to do to be the most likely cause of the remaining problem which Is why i was a little obsessed with the pickups and their wires to start with as that was the only area I knew I had disturbed.
1, To put in fresh spark plugs,
2, Remove the ballast resistors from the circuit,
3 Replace the failed Starter motor,
4 Charge the battery ( which is also virtually new }
I continue working my way through wires and connectors for integrity working back from the coils far more systematically and hopefully effectively now that I have the colour diagram from ILOC. But i still have to earn a living from self employment which means I work weekends sometimes ( this one was one ) and My daughter was on holiday in Marakesh when the earth quake struck so what with work and frantic attempts to contact her not a huge amount got done. Happily we have managed to get in touch with her and she's fine, so I returned to combat with my recalcitrant latest motorcycle purchase this afternoon by drawing up a diagram of the way the ignition wiring passes through the adapter lead provided by Ignitech which nobody else seems to have, so i can test for continuity right from the box to the coils and pickups.
To answer your last question, the coils are beige coloured, the orange and white wires connect at one end and the wire from the ignition module at the other, Though as I'm sure you're aware the sternmost coil ( labelled as 2 on the diagram ) is reversed so each wire is at the other end to the othr two. Looking at them I'd say they are almost certainly the originals for the bike, the HT leads exit from the underside and are stiff enough that I'm fairly certain that they are copper ( though I have to be honest and say I haven't wanted to disturb them or the NGK plug caps -which I suspect are not the originals ) enough to visually check the core by sight.
I'm always reluctant to change anything that has been working, but naturally suspect the work i have been forced to do to be the most likely cause of the remaining problem which Is why i was a little obsessed with the pickups and their wires to start with as that was the only area I knew I had disturbed.
Ok all noted, worry the daughter no question, glad all is not worst case, not sure i would function so much with all the initial worry. Let alone deal with ignition issues.
Coils are oem Nippon Denso as you describe. and are for the most part ultra reliable, HT leads can be replaced, covered on this forum previous, should any issues require a new set of copper 7mm HT leads being fitted. Incidentally, no damage as such from mis-wired or reversed primary winding connection, most desirable is a negative going potential at the spark plug HT spark. Reversed primary would make it positive going, by way of configuration going back to kettering days, all HT current returns back to the primary in Y type ignition coil terminations ie one side of the secondary is connected to one side of the primary and is the reason why you can nuke an electronic ignition module, tens of thousands of volts being flung back at the drive transistors ( and control electronics ) if the HT leads are not connected to plugs and engine frame.
There is the orange wire connection ( +12V supply via run/stop ) to all three ignition coil primaries ( seen black fly wire from memory to the coils proper ), be looking at that triple or daisy chain connections closely, in particular the one missing spark coil. Dont be afraid to pull on the termination connections with conviction, internal wire fracture is hard to diagnose, the plastic insulation will stretch or feel weak. Vince noted that also i believe.
HTH j.
edit; ** just found this on the WWW, useful description of ignition system operation, note the Y connection of the ignition coil primary and secondary. Some coils like a dual tower HT do not have a Y configuration obviously. BTW i use two dual tower coils in a 180 series 1 ignition iis system, just ground out one of the secondary outputs, makes life easy to swap coils that way when fault chasing, also a measure of isolation in protecting the drive circuit in digital ignitions.
www.denso-technic.com
Coils are oem Nippon Denso as you describe. and are for the most part ultra reliable, HT leads can be replaced, covered on this forum previous, should any issues require a new set of copper 7mm HT leads being fitted. Incidentally, no damage as such from mis-wired or reversed primary winding connection, most desirable is a negative going potential at the spark plug HT spark. Reversed primary would make it positive going, by way of configuration going back to kettering days, all HT current returns back to the primary in Y type ignition coil terminations ie one side of the secondary is connected to one side of the primary and is the reason why you can nuke an electronic ignition module, tens of thousands of volts being flung back at the drive transistors ( and control electronics ) if the HT leads are not connected to plugs and engine frame.
There is the orange wire connection ( +12V supply via run/stop ) to all three ignition coil primaries ( seen black fly wire from memory to the coils proper ), be looking at that triple or daisy chain connections closely, in particular the one missing spark coil. Dont be afraid to pull on the termination connections with conviction, internal wire fracture is hard to diagnose, the plastic insulation will stretch or feel weak. Vince noted that also i believe.
HTH j.
edit; ** just found this on the WWW, useful description of ignition system operation, note the Y connection of the ignition coil primary and secondary. Some coils like a dual tower HT do not have a Y configuration obviously. BTW i use two dual tower coils in a 180 series 1 ignition iis system, just ground out one of the secondary outputs, makes life easy to swap coils that way when fault chasing, also a measure of isolation in protecting the drive circuit in digital ignitions.
Back to basics: How an ignition coil works | News
Back to basics: How an ignition coil works All ignition systems for modern petrol engines use ignition coils for the same basic function: to create the high voltage required to produce a spark at the spark plug. Aftermarket professionals will be fami...
www.denso-technic.com
Last edited: