Future for Zane bikes?

TomL said:
Guys,

Been reading this thread with interest. Before venting too many opinions and guesses, please get the facts; read the documentation. It is out there.
The Regina C107HC was a bit of an odd child but neither orphan nor custom. It's just that Laverda and Guzzi were the only ones to buy it at Regina and so only Regina listed it as a known application. And Regina focuses on bikes, much less on cars or industry in general.
Given the costs involved with setting up production and tooling no way it would be limited to just a couple of thousand Laverdas and Guzzis. Neither Regina nor Laverda would have been that foolish. So there is a normalised size / series behind it and thus other people must have used and produced it.

It is partly metric; 8 mm pitch. Unfortunately chains are still very much dominated by medieval stuff like inches and 11/128" conventions. Old standards don't die out quickly. Oh well.... ;)
The 8mm pitch series was introduced around then to offer cam chains for the European automotive industry that would be more compact (lighter) and at the same time take higher revs than the bicycle derived inch-series that were available before. Just the thing for the new fast running small Laverda 500 engine.... well let's use that!

As per Regina specs the sizes are:
pitch: 8,00 mm
roller dia: 4,77 mm
roller width: 5,72 mm
average tensile strength (ats): 9,5kN
# links: 114 (750), 112 (others)

8mm pitch chains are pretty common in European and Japanese car engines, and they seem to be popular in small mopeds and minibikes too. Thing is to get one that will cope with the uneven load of driving a cam. Most of these have a slightly smaller roller width though; around 4,6 - 4,9mm.
No idea why someone decided to go with the oversize width, might be that tooling for 5,2mm sprockets was available so less investment there. Or they wanted to share sprockets between models. Anyway, that's what they did.


There is at least one producer with an exact match on all aspects, but I'm not sure about their quality. It's a chinese factory: may be good, may be rubbish. You could buy some and pull them apart on a bench and see. Alternative would be no chain at all.
Must check some more catalogues to see what's available.

Another option is to go with a current cam chain from a well known supplier but slightly narrower. That would mean shaving 0,25mm off of either side of the original sprockets. Still a cam and crank out conversion but no need for a bespoke crank centre pin (heat treatments anyone?) and cam sprockets. I will be happy to go that route when time comes; 4,7mm is wide enough for this sort of application.

Will be back.

cheers
Tom
Click to expand...
I understood that.

Paul
 
TomL said:
Guys,

Been reading this thread with interest. Before venting too many opinions and guesses, please get the facts; read the documentation. It is out there.
The Regina C107HC was a bit of an odd child but neither orphan nor custom. It's just that Laverda and Guzzi were the only ones to buy it at Regina and so only Regina listed it as a known application. And Regina focuses on bikes, much less on cars or industry in general.
Given the costs involved with setting up production and tooling no way it would be limited to just a couple of thousand Laverdas and Guzzis. Neither Regina nor Laverda would have been that foolish. So there is a normalised size / series behind it and thus other people must have used and produced it.

It is partly metric; 8 mm pitch. Unfortunately chains are still very much dominated by medieval stuff like inches and 11/128" conventions. Old standards don't die out quickly. Oh well.... ;)
The 8mm pitch series was introduced around then to offer cam chains for the European automotive industry that would be more compact (lighter) and at the same time take higher revs than the bicycle derived inch-series that were available before. Just the thing for the new fast running small Laverda 500 engine.... well let's use that!

As per Regina specs the sizes are:
pitch: 8,00 mm
roller dia: 4,77 mm
roller width: 5,72 mm
average tensile strength (ats): 9,5kN
# links: 114 (750), 112 (others)

8mm pitch chains are pretty common in European and Japanese car engines, and they seem to be popular in small mopeds and minibikes too. Thing is to get one that will cope with the uneven load of driving a cam. Most of these have a slightly smaller roller width though; around 4,6 - 4,9mm.
No idea why someone decided to go with the oversize width, might be that tooling for 5,2mm sprockets was available so less investment there. Or they wanted to share sprockets between models. Anyway, that's what they did.


There is at least one producer with an exact match on all aspects, but I'm not sure about their quality. It's a chinese factory: may be good, may be rubbish. You could buy some and pull them apart on a bench and see. Alternative would be no chain at all.
Must check some more catalogues to see what's available.

Another option is to go with a current cam chain from a well known supplier but slightly narrower. That would mean shaving 0,25mm off of either side of the original sprockets. Still a cam and crank out conversion but no need for a bespoke crank centre pin (heat treatments anyone?) and cam sprockets. I will be happy to go that route when time comes; 4,7mm is wide enough for this sort of application.

Will be back.

cheers
Tom
Click to expand...
Hi Tom!

very nice post! thank you.

Just to clarify doubts, I have meassured my 500 chain, it matches perfectly to C107HC and I confirm 8 mm pitch, taking into account that 5/16" is 7'93, we can consider that 5/16" was an approximation for people talking in inches?

Still as expected, the metric chain 05B doesn't fit, as despite having same 8mm pitch, all other meassurements are very different.

Tom, can you share with us where have you found this possible chain match? is it possible to order a few of them to test them? I guess it would make sense to try all possibilities in the market before starting the big project of adapting a 05B chain, or other similar one.

Miguel
 
I was under the impression that C107HC was 5/16" (7.9375mm) pitch.

I couldn't find any specifications for C107HC on the web. So the table above posted by LAVERDA54 is a revelation as it confirms 8mm pitch. If that table is correct (and I have no reason to suspect it isn't) then the solution has just become a whole lot easier.

05B (also 8mm pitch chain) would be a suitable replacement chain if the other dimensions are the same.

However, Piet has stated earlier that 05B doesn't work, so there must be a dimensional difference somewhere. Let's have a look ...

C107HC 06B
Pitch 8.00 8.00
Roller dia 4.77 5.00
Width 5.72 3.16

The 05B is narrower between the plates, so it won't fit the wider sprocket teeth designed for C107HC
Also, 05B has larger rollers. That means they'll ride a little higher on the sprocket (won't sit at the correct PCD)

However, those are not insurmountable problems. I can't see any reason why you couldn't simply re-machine the existing sprockets.
All you'd need to do is take a bit off the sprocket width and open up the sprocket tooth profile for a slightly larger roller diameter.

The 05B will then fit and will run on exactly the same PCD as the C107HC did. Same number of chain pitches. No issues with different chain length or shaft centre distance, cam tunnel clearance, etc. The engine won't know the difference.

There shouldn't be any issues with the strength and reliability of the 05B because it's used as a cam chain in other engines. I think Harleys use 05B so availability won't be a problem.

Does this seem like too simple a solution? Why hasn't someone already done this? Am I missing something?
 
As long as the roller diameter of 05B is larger - allowing the sprockets to be recut - we're fine.

From comments earlier I was supposing the roller OD of C107HC to be the larger...which would have bitched the whole thing.
 
michipons said:
Hi Tom!

very nice post! thank you.

Just to clarify doubts, I have meassured my 500 chain, it matches perfectly to C107HC and I confirm 8 mm pitch, taking into account that 5/16" is 7'93, we can consider that 5/16" was an approximation for people talking in inches?

Still as expected, the metric chain 05B doesn't fit, as despite having same 8mm pitch, all other meassurements are very different.

Tom, can you share with us where have you found this possible chain match? is it possible to order a few of them to test them? I guess it would make sense to try all possibilities in the market before starting the big project of adapting a 05B chain, or other similar one.

Miguel
Click to expand...
Buenas noches Miguel,

Size, in inches or mm's (yes I'm metric all the way ;-) ) is not all we need. Does it fit? Maybe. Will it work? Nope.
05B is a general purpose chain, not an automotive spec cam chain. When you look up the specs for a 05B from a good supplier like IWIS you will see it offers a lot less strength than the C107HC. You would need a duplex (05B-2) to get near the C107. The spec sheet above (thanks to Lav54) states even higher values than the one I had already found: 12,3kN.

Also; because it is a lot narrower (3,15mm vs 5,72mm) you would get high stresses on the teeth compared to the very wide 5,2mm sprockets our bikes have. The people designing these chains put a lot of effort in to make sure the materials, dimensions etc are in balance for the whole combo; nothing too big (heavy) and nothing too small (weak). It is an integrated package. So the loads that the 3mm 05B teeth can take are about the same as what the chain can do. Half of what we need.
For this sort of application I'd expect the rollers to be more or less 'square'; so about 5x5mm give or take 10%.

And I did mention the need for proper heat treatment of those teeth, something like induction hardening which is not easy to do on a small scale.

So as far as I'm concerned this chain is a no-go, sorry.

I'll post more once I'm more sure that what I found is probably correct (more than 1 source, at least 1 from a well known supplier) and may lead to a viable solution. Give me a couple of days to work things out.

Tom
 
Ah, my post has crossed two others.
I don't see the 05B as a trustworthy solution gents, the specs are just too far off. No matter that it may be used in HDs.

Tom
 
OK. There are plenty of 8mm pitch chains out there if you don't like 05B.

05B-2 has thicker side plates than 05B and a much higher tensile strength.

Or how about T8F? It has identical dimensions to C107HC so is a direct replacement. No sprocket modifications necessary. It's used as a drive chain on a heap of scooters and mopeds.

I haven't seen any performance data for either C107HC or T8F so can't comment on the reliability of either.

PS. I've just noticed that some sources of T8F specify a narrower width of 4.8mm, so that needs to be confirmed. If it is narrower, then the sprockets may still need to be thinned a bit, but not as much as for 05B.
 

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This is probably the best pick of the 8mm pitch chains:

IWIS G53HP is specially designed as a timing chain for a heap of engines including Jaguar, Daimler, Audi, BMW, Ford, KTM, and a heap of others. I noticed that one of the engines it was listed for was a 12 cylinder BMW, so I think it would be OK for a Laverda twin.

Pitch 8.00mm
Roller diameter
Width between plates 4.76 mm

IWIS also lists a G53HC with the same dimensions. I dunno what the difference is between the HP and HC chains.

Would require re-machining of sprocket for roller dia and width.
 
I'm a little incredulous at the supposed sprocket requirements. I see quite a lot of post classic and modern engines. I can assure you that chain widths of less than 5mm are quite socially acceptable. The early GS Suzuki and most Z1 cam sprockets weren't hardened to any high standard
either. A chainsaw file will work on them. They run in an oil rich environment with relatively low loads. Originals from 1979 show negligible wear.
If you can recut with suitable tooling - and deburr appropriately - I can't see a problem.
 
I agree 100% Greg. I only looked up alternative (wider) chains because TomL objected to 05B chain and I didn't necessarily want to get into the argument about the durability of the chain drive system. But now that you've opened that subject ... :)

There would be no problem whatsoever using a narrower chain than the original. The tensile load is carried by the side plates and pins, and is un-related to the width of the rollers. In fact I reckon a narrow chain would be an improvement because it would be lighter so dynamic loads would be reduced. It's not the power transmission loads that wear cam chains (you can turn the camshafts by hand FFS!) so the sprocket teeth aren't going to rip off. It's the dynamic loads at high speed that busts chains. Dynamic loads really only affect the chain itself. The sprockets don't see much of the dynamic loads.

Roller chains have been getting skinnier as the chain manufacturing technology improves. At the turn of the millennium, 530 was pretty much the default drive chain for motorcycles. Now they're using 525 or 520, even though horsepower of performance bikes has doubled in that time.
 
Appreciate the discussion here guys.

Eh... 05B-2 is a duplex chain.
The G53HP was on my list shortly but the rollers are 5.00mm dia (3,15mm pins), so you'd need to reshape the tooth profile. Good luck.
G53HC has 5,04mm roller dia and 3,31mm pins, no other differences in the book, same strength too. Might be a fatigue resistant special.
T8F is one of the candidates I'm looking at, but I really want to see it from an A-class manufacturer. Just any *bay or *baba chain sold to go on a mini bike or electric scooter is suspect to me until proven fit for duty.
There seems to be a 'wide' variety of T8F that matches the C107 exactly in all aspects, but so far I've only found one source in China. If the quality is as specified the problem goes away. Someone could order a sample and test it in a lab?
For now my best bet is on DID 05T DHA, roller dia 4,71mm and width 4,61mm. A proper cam chain, not much modification needed to the sprockets; just shave them a bit to take the narrower chain. No dismantling of the crank either, which is a big thing.

My main concerns are that cam chains are the heaviest loaded class, not moderate at all!, due to
- the speed they are running (as pointed out in OEM literature)
- the high changes in load (turning a cam shaft can be done by hand indeed but it is very far from a smooth load. The more cylinders, the better it gets so a single or twin are worst cases. Fatigue is the issue here.)
- surface pressure and lubrication (don't kid yourself about it running in an oil bath; at 8-10.000 rpm it throws all oil clean off)
Of course the teeth get the same loads the chain does where they interact; load bearing surface is a major factor in designing them.

Also we're trying to find a replacement for existing parts. So logic tells me to stay near to the original construction's specs. Somebody at Laverda did do his homework. Whatever Suzuki, Kawasaki et all did, fine but no big concern to me now. Different engine, different specs.
As for hardening: the sprockets in my 650 are certainly hardened, I would have noticed when I made them adjustable. I wouldn't want to risk disturbing that with machining anyway.

Bottom line: I'm trying to help out the Zane and 500 guys by finding something that I would (will) actually do on my own bike. Eat my own dog food so to speak. So yes, I'm picky.
Everyone is of course free to fit whatever to his or hers. A piece of string. Licorice. ;)

cheers
Tom
 
I mean that all current small Moto Guzzi (V7, V85tt ...) use a timing chain with the same specifications like the Zanes.
This means that there is a chain manufacturer that produces this type. We would have to ask this manufacturer if he wants to supply the chains for our Laverda in the appropriate length.
Does anyone here has any relationship with Guzzi?

Wilfried
 
wil said:
I mean that all current small Moto Guzzi (V7, V85tt ...) use a timing chain with the same specifications like the Zanes.
This means that there is a chain manufacturer that produces this type. We would have to ask this manufacturer if he wants to supply the chains for our Laverda in the appropriate length.
Does anyone here has any relationship with Guzzi?

Wilfried
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Hi Wilfried,
Of course. But most people just keep saying 'Regina stopped it, Regina stopped it' and then the discussion dies.
No idea really where Guzzi sources its chains nowadays, nor if they still build or support the small block engines with that chain. But I might make a call or two next week and try to find out.

regards
Tom
 
Somebody said in a previous post that only 350/500 Guzzis had the same specs chain, from regina too, and they are facing the same problems as we do.

This whole investigation is a good think before starting heavy manufacturing, opening cranks, machining sprockets... but not so fun!😁 was already looking for heavy presses for my workshop...

Tom, I am happy to order a few samples of your chinese choice, I can put it in the engine to see how it fits and check valve timing.
Todd has a great machine to test big yachts ropes, I don’t know how many tones, but for sure a lot, we could test it there, he even has a camera inside to see how it breaks!🥺
I guess that would be only one parameter, really interesting test would be resistance to wear under similar circumstances as in the engine, but if we know it holds 20 tones before breaking, we know we are safe...

regards
Miguel
 
I have contacted a couple of Guzzi spares shops and their website states 'not available' for those chains. Have tried to contact them via tel but to date the phone just rings but I will keep trying.
I believe that there are a number of other Guzzi's that use this size chain but all are the small block type so range from 350 to 750 according to one website I visited. One of the things about Guzzi's (certainly on the larger block types but not 100% sure on the small blocks) is that one has the option of ditching the chain and tensioner and fitting gears to drive the cams - a big help if the chain becomes unavailable, no machining just a kit of parts to be fitted.
Adios,
Charles
 
Thomas, just visited your link site - Stein-Dinse but when I looked the other day I am sure it stated that there was no stock. Do you know the spec of this chain as I believe that on some of the Guzzi models the chain did change over the years and I think a duplex one was fitted at one stage and I think a different sized, simplex was also used. Maybe I have been in lockdown too long:eek::eek:
Charles
 
Seems Ducati used the same C107HC chain in the starter system on some of their bikes (I don't know which models). I presume they're in the same predicament as everyone else unless someone has a stock of "Ducati starter chain" somewhere.
 
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